[Sebonac]

Does anyone know if Tom Doak is looking to Lido for some of his inspiration for Old MacDonald?

[Tom_Doak]

Sebonac:

I know, anyway.

We will have a hole something like the fourth at Lido at Old Macdonald on hole #17.  The Lido hole was inspired by a hole at Littlestone, England which did not have any water in play, so I think we can proceed without a pond.  From the back tee, it may indeed be a 260 yard carry to the island fairway ... that hole won't happen until November, so we have some time to figure it out.

The only other holes which were unique to Lido (as opposed to Macdonald's other courses) were #18, inspired by Alister MacKenzie's prize-winning design, #15, inspired by an entry of Tom Simpson's to the same competition, and #6, inspired by one of the runners-up for the competition.  I didn't think any of those should have a place on a course meant to honor Macdonald, even if he did use them at Lido.  We did think about using a version of the dogleg #6, but we did not find an ideal place for it.

I think it is fair to say that our inspirations for Old Macdonald are the same as Macdonald's inspirations for the National Golf Links of America ... the great holes from Britain of which he was so enamored.

[George_Bahto]

Much of the demise of Lido caused by a number of unforseen circumstances.

The Lido project began in 1914 about the time Hitler was terrorizing Europe

The course opened in 1917 (unofficially) - 1918 officially - this is when the US entered the WWI and at that time the original founders turned their interest to the war effort and away from golf.

They never really got back into the project the way they originally intended after the war and the course began a long period of deterioration and money problems (even thought he great clubhouse was built in 1928) and after a time some of the ocean holes were sold off and the course shortened.

I’ve spoken with a person whose family actually owned the Lido course at two different times during the down days. He bought and sold it for profit both times.

The U S Navy took over Long Beach Island during the WW2 and the course was lost

I guess I should do the “Lido book” - it is a very interesting story and over the years I’ve come up with a treasure trove of information and photos that did not appear in the Macdonald book

There is a lot more detail I went through in my first book but that is the bones of the story

[George_Bahto]

)Tom Paul one of the main reasons CBM was disappointed with the end result of the Lido course and it contractors was that so much money was spent on the landfill operation many of the finite features that were supposed to go onto the course were eliminated ....  most notable the ideas he had about the various (different) ripples the fairways were supposed to get.

As I said, the war effort and the lost interest by the wealthy founders really hit the course hard but it still came out great enuf to take the #2 spot at the time (pre-PV

[Tom_Doak]

George:

That last statement makes me wonder for the first time whether Lido was really as good as it was cracked up to be, or whether some of its #2 ranking was simply awe over the scope of the project and how it came to be, much like Shadow Creek.

I wish we could go back and play it so I would know for sure.

[George_Bahto]

You know, Tom, I think I agree to a large extent.

It was an engineering marvel - the pumps used to dredge Reynold’s Channel were from the Panama Canal project - 2 million cu yds of inert sand from the bottom.

The press was enamored with the project (yes, Shadow Creek and now Bayonne) - the enormity of it all - and it was something that had never even been thought of before. Article after article was written about the course.

The fact that they took this swamp, barely above sea level, and made it into really good course really caught everyone’s attention for sure. 


... and these founders were real promoters as well.

Quote:

“Spearheading the sizeable group of investors headed by Winthrop, were Paul Kravath, Thomas Cuyler, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Robert Goelet, Charles Sabin, Henry Bull, W. Forbes Morgan, James Stillman, Harry Paine Whitney and the ever-present Otto Kahn. Many of these men, and others who would later join them, were already members at the National, of Piping Rock, Nassau, Garden City and of Sleepy Hollow as well. This was the wealth of the northeast United States.”

*
Some of the holes were really great holes but perhaps the hype over-blew the ranking of the course - everyone got caught up in the fact something like this could actually be done in that day and age.

I was honored to interview Gene Sarazen at age 92 and he hated the course - of course he never played well there ...... like ngla, he said: “too many blind shots”and at Lido: “too many blind shots AND too windy” (hah)

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

With the Lido and with Macdonald's opinions of what happened to it and why all I'm doing is reading what he wrote about it in his book, and you're right, he did say in his book he was disappointed the fill contractors did not do SOME of the fairway contours to the course plans as he hoped they would. If you're aware of something else he wrote about it that would certainly be interesting to know but I pretty much doubt there is anything other on the Lido than what is contained in Macdonald's own book.

[Neil_Crafter]

Interesting thread gentlemen.
Is the plan of the course mirror-reversed by chance George - or do I need a new prescription for my glasses?

[TEPaul]

"Is the plan of the course mirror-reversed by chance George - or do I need a new prescription for my glasses?"

Neil:

Indeed it is! Frankly, it's a whole lot more challenging playing to the fairways of a hole surrounded by a noogal than it is to a hole surrounded by a lagoon.

[ChipOat]

There was a Lido thread several years ago wherein the Emperor himself, Tommy Naccarato, superimposed the original routing on an aerial photo of how the ground looks today (from Google Maps??).  It was pretty neat, if anyone knows how to find it (I don't).

[TEPaul]

You know Chip Old Boy, I'm actually sorry you brought up that superimposed map of the way it is today compared to the original Lido course. It only serves to bring back a bad and embarrassing memory for me. I took that superimposed map very seriously back then and when I was up there at one point I actually honed right in on the original 4th green and unfortunately I found myself inside the bedroom of one Mrs Marino Soprano whose bed happened to be immediately over the approximate center of the Channel hole green. It was app. 10 o'clock in the morning and she was in bed with the yardman. I said I was extremely sorry and that I was only a golf architectural archaeologist on a most important search mission. She did not seem to be amused.

[George_Bahto]

Neil - your right, thanks - sorry - I've been fooling with this on in various forms for years

the correct view:

[George_Bahto]

Sorry for this, but is one of my favorite parts of the Lido story:

Macdonald had stolen the great Peter Lees from Mid Surry and brought him over the the US to help with the project, esp the grow in. They brought him out to the swamp-site.

* *

    (Peter) Lees' defection across the Atlantic touched off a major scandal, as furious readers sounded off in Country Life with a chorus of condemnation and disapproval.  First this arrogant Macdonald sailed over and plagiarized their finest golf holes, and now he was stealing Peter Lees from their shores to grow grass for a new course - in America yet!
     But the transition was anything but smooth, as related by Horace Hutchinson in an article in (British) Country Life in 1914. The following exchange was witnessed first hand by famous golfer and writer, James S. Worthington when Peter Lees was shown the would-be construction site for the first time: 
         
        "It was a strange sight to see the famous Peter Lees, when on one bleak day, escorted to the spot by some of the bold pioneers of the Lido Club, he first cast eyes on this veritable desert. Arriving at Long Beach (Island) the party proceeded by slow stages through the sand and bent to their destination. The wind whistles about their ears and blown sand hit into their eyes".
        "Eventually a halt was called. Peter looked at his companions and they looked at him. The situation looked gloomy in the extreme. An impasse was at hand. Feeling something was expected of him, Peter in gentle accents, inquired, ‘Where is the course goin' to be?’”.
         
    One of the founders, a bit sheepishly, waved his arm out towards the panorama of sand - and mostly water.

     "Oh, all around here," he replied

    Peter Lees couldn't believe his eyes.  A dour man, he had been offered some silly propositions in his time, but this was the limit. Had he come clear across the Atlantic to see this?

     "Oh, is that so,?" retorted Lees.  "Well then, if that's the case, I am goin'' 'ome!"

[Peter Pallotta]

Obviously routing a site, particularly one that has a ton of natural assets and topography and such for the best individual holes it may offer just may not get you even close to an ideal golf course in the sense those holes are in the right place and of the right type to conform to what most have considered really good balance and variety in a routing or sequential sense.

That fact seems to be one of the lesser known aspects about great natural sites and great routings, at least in an ideal balance and variety and sequential sense. It's a lot easier to produce a great routing in a balance and variety and sequential sense on a site that basically offers few natural obstacles to that goal, but the fact is to get really good holes on a site that has a lot less natural assets the architect will need to make a lot more himself simply because there just isn't that much of interest to use to come up with an ideal course in an individual hole sense.

TE - thanks. That's a balanced perspective, and more balanced than I'm prone to offering myself. I've mentioned this before, but I remember reading that the Navajos would purposely weave a little mistake into their beautiful blankets, "just to let the devil out". I've never been sure what that act meant to them, but maybe it had something to do with recognizing (and at the same time honouring) the fact that in this life we don't get to be perfect, i.e. that the natural world is a place of beautiful and sacred IMPERFECTION. The pursuit of the "ideal" course with 18 great holes -- especially when it's being created from scratch -- seems to me to misunderstand both the essence of the art of golf course architecture and what makes that art unique, i.e. that when working with nature as your partner, there's no such thing as perfect. Golfers and golf course architects should be the last to bemoan the fact; we should be celebrating it instead. After all, we're talking about golf courses, not skyscrapers.

Peter 

[Neil_Crafter]

George
Thanks for posting it the right way round. What were you doing with a reverse version?
TE, yes you have to watch out for those NOOGALs, but don't overcompensate and hit it into the NAECO.
You'll definitely be in the TIHS then.
Neil

[James Bennett]

Neil

is this a northern hemisphere corolois effect thing?

James B

[Neil_Crafter]

James
is that the reason you can't spell Coriolis?
Neil

[George_Bahto]

George
Thanks for posting it the right way round. What were you doing with a reverse version?


...........hah -   a "west coast" version with the ocean on the opposite side        (US west coast to you  )

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

You know some of the remarks in the posts on this thread have definitely got me thinking about Macdonald and his modus operandi on some of the courses he is credited with. I realize you can only speculate with an answer but nevertheless, the question is how much time do you suppose Macdonald every really spent on the projects he did other than NGLA?

I have no basis for saying it but something tells me Mid Ocean is the one he may've spent the most time and effort on behind NGLA. I ask this question because it seems sort of strange to me that Macdonald would complain some years later that the fill contractor did not put the undulations he wanted into some of the holes and fairways of The Lido. It sure seems like the prinicipals gave him carte blanche and a ton of money for the course so why didn't he see to it that the contractors got it right?

For reasons of his intimate involvment with the club (he was the president of the Kellenworth corporation, the holding company) something also tells me he was intimately involved in the design and maturation of The Creek Club too.

How about The Links? That one seemed like another of his personal pet projects?

[James Bennett]

James
is that the reason you can't spell Coriolis?
Neil

No

just my bad.


I was impressed with George Bahto's 'West coast' version comment.  Many a true word spoken in jest George.  Down here in OZ, we think of East and West as Asia and Europe/North America/Australia etc.  I suspect East is also quite distant from West within the USA!

James B

[BCrosby]

"The Lido project began in 1914 about the time Hitler was terrorizing Europe."

Hold the phone. I thought Blutarsky said Hitler bombed Pearl Harbor.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Hold the phone. I thought Blutarsky said Hitler bombed Pearl Harbor."


That is the new thinking, Roberto, and some now believe Macdonald/Whigam actually designed the "plan" for it.

[BCrosby]

TEP -

The thing about Mid-O is that RTJ made a number of changes in the 60's, but after many rounds there I'm still unclear about what is RTJ and what is CBM. Some stuff is oviously one or the other, but a lot is not easily assignable.

As you know CBM had a home on the pond next to the Cape Hole. I assume he spent a lot time there. But the details of the pre-RTJ course aren't easy to find. If Tom Doak has something, many of us would love to see it.

Bob

[George_Bahto]

Bob - what happened at MO is really clouded and hard to get any good info.

For years I've been trying to get what CBM and SR actually put "on the ground" at Mid Ocean

Tom, consults there and he hasn't been able to come up with anything substantial either

There is a basic plan in Scotland's Gift but it doesn't have enuf info on it aside from it being just conceptual.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

I met a man at the Macdonald Cup at Creek last year from Mid Ocean and he sure knows the story of what happened with MO. We talked a lot about it but it was pretty hard for me to follow without some kind of plan in my hand. I think the gist of it was they sold some land (not necessarily on the golf course itself) that pretty much required that some holes had to be changed in various ways. It was interesting, however, that this man clearly had in the back of his mind how to put it back the way it once was as much as would be possible given the foregoing.

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