[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I've walked the property but it's not at the same level as the Banks Course at Forsgate. Mike, you might need t breakdown and head south via the NJ Tpke and see what was done with the Monroe Township course through the efforts of Stephen Kay and the desire from key honcho Chris Schiavone.

Forsgate eliminated the trees that clog the design avenues and the bunkering there is even better because they made sure not to go in a different direction than what was originally done.

Let me also point out that Essex County in West Orange is also well done through the desire of the club and from the combined skills of Hanse & Bahto. Here's a layout that suffered because of the ignorance of so many supposedly "in the know" people who failed to really appreciate what is there. The course has been improved dramatically -- although the need to have severe rough is a questionable element from what I saw in 2008.

Montclair is blessed with two Banks nines and when you factor in that half of the chosen 18 has hosted the US Amateur ('85) one needs to see the totality of what Banks has done.

Like I said, those writing on this thread have a healthy appreciation of what Banks did -- it would be really good to see others take the time to play any number of these courses and for them to receive even more attention and praise.

[Mike Sweeney]

Matt.

Get back to us when you play the course! 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Since you raised the subject of "playing the course" -- have you played the recent version of Forsgate ? Or for that matter Essex County CC ?

Or for that matter what Banks did with Montclair ?

You busted my chops about being out west too much and not paying much attention in my own backyard. Curious to know since you opined that Whipporwill was the best of the Banks courses you have played. I don't see it that way but that's what makes life interesting is differences of opinions.

Thanks for sharing ...

[Mike Sweeney]

Oh Matt "You have to plaaaaay the course" Ward, just having some fun with you.

As an alternative suggestion, maybe we can get a group of us over to see Uncle George's final work at The Knoll in the Spring. I think he has said that he is ready for us now.

Mucci, Bahto, Slapper, Ward ........ I am guessing that we will have some strong opinions that day. 

50 degrees today, I was going to play, but snow is still on the ground even in South Jersey. 

I am hoping that February 1st is the new April 1st this year.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You are so right about The Knoll / West. Unfortunately, despite the improvements that have been made it's still a bit behind the likes of Forsgate / Banks, Montclair #3&#4, and Essex County in my mind. The potential is there but no doubt George still has ideas that need to be implemented.

We do agree that Banks is very much underrated by a great many people -- interesting to see how Raynor gets plenty of attention but not him.

[Barry Cohen]

As a follow up to this thread, indeed we've cut back or removed over 150 trees over the past 2 winters (helped by that near hurricane in April 2010).  In the picture of the 10th hole above, for example, all of the trees left of the green are gone, leaving that huge bunker exposed and much more in play.

Also, the grass around many of the deep bunkers has been kept a shorter length to enable balls to roll down, particularly on the 7th redan, where if you are short and left, it really makes the hole much harder!

[Matt_Ward]

Barry:

Curious to know if you have played a range of other Banks courses besides Tamarack.

If so -- which ones and your comments.

thanks,

[Barry Cohen]

I have played Whipporwill, which is literally just up the road from Tamarack about 4 miles or so.  The course has many similar features to Tamarack, but a much different feel.  The routing at Whipporwill is through a few more ridges and hills, which leads to more blind shots, especially off the tees (or if not blind to the fairway, easy to lose an errant shot that disappears from view).  I also got the impression that the bunkering was less built up, but rather used the landscape for the deep side bunkers.  Thus, you don't get quite the extensive, surrounding bunkers that one might see at Tamarack.  Having said all this, I found several of the longer par-4s at Whipporwill were really BIG holes, there was a lot of thinking about how much to club up or down for elevation and the course had a number of very scenic vistas from up on the hills.

I haven't played any of the NJ Banks courses.

There are quite a few Raynor courses that compare very well to Tamarack, Fisher's Island comes to mind.  Granted, you cannot see water from every tee and every green (like at Fisher's), but there are so many holes which are identical or mirror images of each other.  For example, #2 (Redan), plays similar to our #7, #3's green punishes a long shot with a 15-20 foot plunge into a bunker like Tamarack's #9, The #4 punchbowl takes 2 perfectly struck shots to reach in regulation, similar to Tamarack's #11 punchbowl.  The #5 Biarritz disappointed me a bit, as the front half of the green including the swale is cut like "approach fairway" rather than like Tamarack's Biarritz which is 87 yards long of green.  And the #9 green is indeed the mirror image of Tamarack's #13, with the front ledge on the right side (rather than left) and a very strong hill leading up to the back portion of the green.

I also see many of Bank's designs taken from the Old White course at The Greenbrier.

So from a perspective of similarities to Raynor's courses, I get the sense that Tamarack is one of Banks' closest imitations of his mentor.

[Matt_Ward]

Barry:

Thanks.

I have not played Tamarack since the changes were brought to bear.

In regards to overall standing -- I think Forsgate / Banks is one of the really interesting ones -- although there have been some conditioning issues and a few of the added tee pads have been called into question by some here and elsewhere.

Amazingly, Banks gets little attention on this site -- you get all these Raynor fans clogging up the space.

The 4th nine at Montclair (NJ) is quite good -- ditto the work that Bahto / Hanse did in bringing back to life so many of his design elements at Essex County CC (NJ) -- too bad the ole West (now Francis Bryne) cannot be done as well.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This course is getting much closer to its potential greatness.  Tress are disappearing at a wonderful rate.

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