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DMoriarty

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Mismeasuring Merion
« on: April 07, 2008, 08:09:09 PM »
When Bobby Jones completed his “grand slam” by winning the US Amateur at Merion in 1930, Golf Illustrated published aerials tracing each of Jones’ shots of each of his two final day rounds, thus allowing the golfing world a glimpse at his greatness.  Looking at these photos today, one is truly amazed at just how far he must have hit the ball.   On many of the photos, Golf Illustrated wrote in yardages on the fairway, and Jones appears to be consistently knocking the ball out there around 300 yards or further.   

It is enough to make one wonder why so many of us are complaining about how much technology has changed the game.  If Jones could consistently and repeatedly knock it out there 300 yards or more, then shouldn’t we conclude that the technology must hot have changed the game much at all?

The trouble is, at the time the official yardages of many of the golf holes at Merion were overstated, sometimes substantially.   While I don’t want to revisit past quibbles about specific yardages on specific holes, I will state, generally, that using Google Earth, an overall measure of the course indicates that the total yardage is overstated by more than 300 yards.   Holes with rolling terrain, such as a the 10th, 12th, and 14th appear to be off by around 10% or more.   

How could this be?  Turns out it all depends upon how you measure. 

In 1924 the Green Section Record published an article called “The Measurement of Golf Holes,” which discussed, among other issues, the following (my underline added):

The question is constantly asked whether holes should be measured in an air-line or along the contour of the ground. For practical reasons the contour of the ground is usually the better method. In the first place it is much easier, and in most cases it gives a result almost identical with that of the air-line method. If the play is over rising ground followed by falling ground and then another rise, it is true that the contour method slightly increases the length, but as a large part of the play is uphill this seems entirely fair, because the hole plays long even as measured.   Of course, in certain exceptional cases the air-line method should be used. Let us take, for instance, a one-shot hole of, say, 160 yards in a direct line, played from a high tee over a deep ravine to a high green beyond. The air-line measurement would be 160 yards. If a contour measurement were used, following down into the ravine and up the other side, it might show a distance of 200 yards, which would be entirely misleading, as the contour of the ravine in no way enters into the shot. In general thenfor the sake of practical convenience, holes should be measured on the contour of the ground; but in the unusual case where the contour does not enter into or affect the play of the shot, the air-line method should be used.
 
The article, authored by Alan D. Wilson,  may have drastically understated the impact of using the contour method on rolling terrain.   Given that Wilson was a long-time member of Merion and the brother of Hugh I. Wilson, who is credited with designing both Merion Courses, Merion most likely measured using this method.

Presumably, many other older courses also used the “contour” method of measurement, possibly distorting the yardages of the shots on their courses as well.    How about your own course?  Were the yardages accurate?   Are they now?

As for Merion, I haven’t checked them all, but the current measurements seem have been made using a straight line method.   So Merion has grown much more over the years than the supposed change in yardage reflects.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 08:13:56 PM »
Welcome back!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 08:19:35 PM »
Welcome, David.

It may help you to know that the first approved drawing of Cobb's Creek also includes some significant "overmeasurement", with the exception of one vastly "undermeasured" hole, the 13th, where I think the numbers were just inverted on the map to read 450 instead of the real 540.

Cobb's Creek has 140 feet of elevation change on the property.

wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 08:44:57 PM »
David,

Have you considered the present measurements from respective tees on holes that have not changed since 1930?  If so, what have you determined?

As for Jones consistently knocking the ball out around 300 yards and beyond, I'll let individuals judge for themselves how accurate that assessment is.  Of the few shots that went on or about 300 yards, I think you'll notice one thing they had in common.  Given the course conditions and the weather, I don't think it was at all unreasonable that Jones was able to carry and roll some of his tee shots 300 or so yards.  While the carry distances were significantly shorter than they are today, even with the higher fairway cuts, maintenance practices and the clubs themselves allowed a significant amount of roll if the right shot was played.  I feel pretty confident that Jones knew what the right shot to play was.












James Bennett

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 09:12:21 PM »
Wayne

nice post. I appreciate the photos.

As I recall, Merion East has a significant clay soil component.  Depending on the weather at the time of this event, the fairways could well be quite firm and provide significant roll.  Particularly in comparison to a course with the benefit of sandy soils.


Dave - nice to see you on the board.  8)

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Peter Wagner

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2008, 09:20:34 PM »
I know it's off your point but I find the lines that Jones picked on 4,5,11, and 17 really interesting.  Especially 11 and 17.  Wonder why he seemed determined to be so far left?

Jones rocked the mashie niblick!

To your point on distance measurements in 1930...  There was plenty of fairly accurate surveyors gear available in 1930.  Would a golf course have used it then to measure a course?  I dunno but I would guess that some would as the cost of hiring a two man team for a few days wouldn't have been that expensive.  All guesses on my part except I know the equipment was available.  Heck, two guys, a 100 yard rope, some paper and a pencil would have gotten you pretty close.

Wayne, thanks for the pictures.

Best,
Peter


Adam Sherer

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2008, 10:03:48 PM »
In the Jan/Feb 2004 issue of Links Magazine, there is an article about P.G. Tait (pp. 28-32) the "father of the science of golf".  This 19th century Scottish academic wrote extensive scientific papers on golf and the physics of golf equipment. It has been said that his son, Freddie Tait, disputed his father's calculations of the maximum distance possible that a person could drive a golf ball.........

............"a credible eyewitness, J.L. Low, recalled seeing Freddie hit a drive hole-high on St. Andrews' 12th "Heathery" hole, some 350 yards away." [page 32] 

This all happened before the turn of the 20th century as Freddie Tait was killed in 1900 during the Boer War.

If this is legitimate, it would be of no surprise that Jones was hitting the ball in the 300 yard range. These, however, are results indicative of the "best" golfers in the world from their respective eras. Nowadays, I can hit the ball 300 yards, you can hit the ball 300 yards, my dad can hit the ball 300 yards; today the 300 yard mark is less impressive than with a man like Bobby Jones or Freddie Tait.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 10:05:52 PM by Adam_Sherer »
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

DMoriarty

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2008, 10:14:13 PM »
David,

Have you considered the present measurements from respective tees on holes that have not changed since 1930?  If so, what have you determined?

As for Jones consistently knocking the ball out around 300 yards and beyond, I'll let individuals judge for themselves how accurate that assessment is.  Of the few shots that went on or about 300 yards, I think you'll notice one thing they had in common.  Given the course conditions and the weather, I don't think it was at all unreasonable that Jones was able to carry and roll some of his tee shots 300 or so yards.  While the carry distances were significantly shorter than they are today, even with the higher fairway cuts, maintenance practices and the clubs themselves allowed a significant amount of roll if the right shot was played.  I feel pretty confident that Jones knew what the right shot to play was.

Wayne, thanks for posting pictures.  I am not sure I even remember how.

I don't doubt that Jones was capable of driving the ball 300 yards on occasion, especially with roll.  But many of the drives marked on the pictures as 300 or near 300 yard drives were not even close.    For example, as marked on the photos and measuring from GI's dots on the tee, the drives on the 10th hole appear to be about 260 yards, not 300. 

Most likely this was because of Merion's method of measuring.   

As I said in my post, I have not checked all of the modern yardages, but did checked some a while back.  They appear to no longer use Wilson's "contour" system.   Take a look at the listed yardages for the 10th , for example,   The hole was originally listed at over 380 when it was probably not much longer than 330 or 340, then was listed as 330 when it was probably not longer than 280 or 285 from the tee Jones is marked as having played, and that tee appears in the pictures to be the back tee.    Now, isnt the hole listed as 303?   Since the major change, the yardage has gotten shorter while the hole has gotten longer. 

You have claimed in the past that the back tee existed in 1930, but have never presented evidence of this.  If the back tee did exist in 1930, the measure has shrunk almost 30 yards, yet I am pretty sure the hole hasnt.
_____________________________________

Peter,   I have no idea what instruments they used.  Given the methodology, I picture them out there with a wheel counter.   But I agree that they surely could have gotten in right with the implements of the day.  But they didnt.

The problem was their methodology was flawed.  They were measuring along the ground instead of in a straight line.   Two guys with a rope would not be very accurate if they were laying the rope on the ground to measure. 

__________________________

Adam,  Again, I do not doubt that these guys could occasionally hit it 300 yards.  But as with the case some of Jones' drives at Merion, many of these numbers are greatly exaggerated because of faulty measurement.   

As for 350 yards at TOC in the 19th century, if it did happen my guess is conditions had something to do with it.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 10:17:05 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Adam Sherer

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 10:27:58 PM »
Moriarty:

Essentially you are referring to slope distance, right?  When you take out the "slope" and measure simply "as the crow flies" it is your estimation that that measuring will be more accurate? 

On a side note, do ground conditions (dryness) have merit in measuring drive distance? What are the ideal conditions for establishing driving distance?
What percent grade? 0%? 
What perc rate in the soils to eliminate dryness?
Would you use a wheel, a tape, GPS to measure the distance? What eliminates the most human error?

Overall, are you trying to establish that Merion plays longer than it shows are that Jones did not hit the ball as far as this study assumes? Or, is it just a mathamatical discussion of slope distance?
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 10:36:59 PM »
David Moriarty,

My club in NJ, opened in 1927, had measurements that were inaccurate (overstated) more than 40 years ago.

Years later, when the course was remeasured using tape/line revised measurements weren't accepted/adopted.

It was only when the club was about to embark on a renovation that accurate measurements revealed the shorter nature of the course.

I suspect that this tended to be universal amongst older, non-profile courses.

Jones had a powerful swing, but, longer fairways tend to offset dry fairways and 300 yards seems unlikely in 1930 given the ball, equipment and agronomics.

Since TV wasn't there to document the location of the drives, someone had to estimate where Jones's ball ended up.  Perhaps that estimation was embellished.

Peter Wagner

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2008, 10:51:24 PM »


Peter,   I have no idea what instruments they used.  Given the methodology, I picture them out there with a wheel counter.   But I agree that they surely could have gotten in right with the implements of the day.  But they didnt.

The problem was their methodology was flawed.  They were measuring along the ground instead of in a straight line.   Two guys with a rope would not be very accurate if they were laying the rope on the ground to measure. 



Hi David,

I don't have an opinion on Bobby Jones driving the ball 300 yards.  But if you guys say it happened that's fine by me.  

Distance measuring in 1930 was very accurate.  The Golden Gate bridge was designed and surveyed in 1930 and the Chrysler Building was completed in 1930.  Both would seem to have required some pretty good measuring devices.  Ditto the Eiffel Tower in 1880.  Then there was that French guy that designed the entire city of Wash DC in about 1780, 150 years prior to Marion and Mr. Jones.  

Accurately measuring the distance of a golf hole would have been very easy in 1930 and it wouldn't have required ropes or wheel counters.  I agree with you that it was measured incorrectly and perhaps we'll never know why.  Were the archies sloppy?  I don't know.  Were the yardages purposely exaggerated?  Again I don't know.  My guess is that they didn't feel the need to be accurate because if they had they could have easily hired the talent and equipment to do this.

Here's a link to some guys surveying for the railroad in the 1930's:
http://www.foresthistory.org/Research/Biltmore_Project/Urania.html

Take two of these guys for a couple of days, add the Pythagorean theorem, mix gently and poof there's your exact distance.  Completely adjusted for altitude changes.  Simple stuff in 1930.

Best,
Peter


DMoriarty

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 11:03:26 PM »

Adam,

Not sure what you mean by slope distance.   You may want to take another look at Alan Wilson's description of how he measured, because he explains it better than I am.   

 What I am saying is that, except in severe instances, Merion used to measure the ground between the green and the tee.   If the ground was rolling, then the distance  would be exaggerated.   Imagine measuring from tee to green across a gentle valley.   Measuring a rope pulled taut across a valley will give a shorter measure than measure a rope that is laid down on the ground.   

My points are threefold:

1.   Old golf courses that followed the contour method of measurement overestimated what we usually think of as the true distance of the golf holes.  Merion is an example of one of these courses.

2.   Stories of long drives from the past may also be exaggerated because the holes were not measured inaccurately.   Some of Jone's drives from 1930 are an example of long drives that were not really as long as we thought. 

3.  The lengthening of golf courses over time has probably been more severe than we thought, because the old ones were not as long as we thought

___________________

Patrick, I dont think the locations of the drives were necessarily embellished.  Rather, the golf holes just were not as long as they thought.   They thought that the 10th was 330 yards, so they assumed that Jones's drives up by the green were 300 yards.   In reality, the hole was not 330 yards, and the drives were only around 260. 

________________________

Peter,  again I agree.  The technology was there to accurately measure.   They just chose to measure in a manner that doesn't seem to make much sense.  Not even the most accurate instruments can overcome a faulty methodology.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

James Bennett

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 11:05:34 PM »
Peter Wagner

I interpret your advice as saying 'if they wanted to measure accurately, they could'.  I have no evidence of what Merion's preference was.  However, I do no that my own Joe-Average club took some 'pride' in the 1960-1980 period in having a length that probably followed the ground and the centreline of the fairways.  Given the valleys occasionally encountered and the doglegs often encountered, my home course played very short compared to the distance on the card.  That was in an era when 6600 to 6700 yards was a reasonably long course.  The effective playing length was probably overstated by 200 yards or more.

It was not until some independent measuring and measurement instructions came from the ruling body that these measurements changed.

James B

Edit

In the case of Merion East's 10th hole, IIRC, the fairway curves from right to left.  So, a measurement that follows the valley floor, and follows the curvature of the fairway will overstate the distance compared to the straight-line to a particular shot-point.  Not that is necessarily what Merion East may have done.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:09:07 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Peter Wagner

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 11:50:12 PM »
I just thought of three areas where errors could have occurred in 1930 even if Merion used the two railroad guys and their survey equipment.

1.) The tee boxes.  Do you measure from the back, middle or front of the box?
2.) The greens.  Almost all greens are irregular in shape making it difficult to find the exact center.  With two guys and a tape measure you can get close but not exact.  Plus or minus 2 yards maybe.
3.) Doglegs.  Please look at the picture of the 15th hole above.  Our railroad surveyors could have reasonably picked either line that Jones picked.  The problem is one line is slightly longer tee to green.

So to be completely accurate you would have to add a person with golf knowledge to help our little crew.  So maybe you would have added the Greens Chairman to the crew in 1930.  You'd probably pick the center of the fairway at an average driving distance.  You might place a stone at each tee box depicting where the measurement started.  That sort of stuff.

So this might explain some of the errors in yardage at Merion.  The error in #1 above could be large.  Maybe in 1930 Merion measured from the back of the box instead of the normal placement of tee markers.  That  might be a distance of 4 yards per hole or 72 yards total.  Center of the green errors could account for maybe another 2 yards per hole or 36 total.  And the dogleg issue in number 3 above could be as much as 5 to 10 yards per hole or 90 to 180 yards total.  The total error could be as much as 2 or 3 hundred yards if our railroad guys weren't golfers.  In other words, they might have used the right technology in 1930 and still have gotten it wrong from a golfers perspective.

Best,
Peter
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 11:10:45 AM by Peter Wagner »

DMoriarty

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 11:55:24 PM »
Peter,

The bulk of Alan Wilson's 1924 article, quoted in part above, provides detailed instruction as to how to address all of these issues.   The only thing they appear to have gotten wrong was that they chose to measure along the ground instead of in a straight line.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 01:00:02 AM »
David,

Welcome back.  And, thanks again for the playing tour of RC back in December.

As to Merion measurements.  We did that before.  Some of the graphic art placement of the 200 and 300 yard marks appear incorrect - #10 being one obvious example where the 200 yard mark looks close, but the 300 yard mark is probably off by 30 yards (see picture below).  I doubt this was a measuring technique error.  The area between the 200 and 300 yard marks is gently rising but even if they followed the land with a wheel it likely wouldn't add more than a yard.

As examples, if you have a tee on top of a 30 yard high cliff on a 100 yard horizontal hole, and if you could use a measuring wheel straight down the cliff and then straight out to the hole it would measure 130 yards.  If the hole was a ramp to the green from the 30 yard high tee and you rolled the wheel down the ramp the length would be 104 yards (not really significant).  Of course, if you teed off from up there in either case your normal 100 yard parabolic sand wedge shot would likely go 110 yards because of the extra 30 vertical yards of air time.

As to Jones' length, most of them seem reasonable enough.  Some seem silly and can probably be attributed to graphic art error.  For instance on number two, he appears to have driven it 210 yards while his second shot appears to be 290 yards (is that hole seriously downhill or generally uphill to the hole?).







DMoriarty

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 01:20:01 AM »
Hey Bryan,

I don't doubt most of the markings of Jones' shots, what I doubt are the measures of the holes.

I understand your point, but even in your example, there is a 4 % error.   If the hole ramps down the same and then ramps up the same distance, that then the error is doubled.   If the ground is rolling, then the same error would be repeated with each roll.   And even a 5% error on a 400 yard hole is a 20 yard difference. 

quote author=Bryan Izatt link=topic=34052.msg682299#msg682299 date=1207630802]




[/quote]

I think you may be measuring from well back of where Jones drive is marked as starting. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 01:40:08 AM »
David,

In my example, a 90 foot drop in 100 yards is a very, very large hill - larger than you would see in most holes, let alone repetitively over a 400 yard hole (however measured).  If you take a more modest 15 foot deep swale (i.e. down 15 feet at 50 yards and back up to level at 100 yards) every 100 yards on a 400 yard, horizontally measured hole, you would only add 1.6 yards to the overall length of 400 yards.  Hardly significant.

I think the tee is about right; the distance to the left bunker is about the same, and if you use the bunkers at the back of the 9th green as reference points, then the tee location sort of matches.  In any event the 300 yard mark in the old pictures looks to be at least 30 yards to long.  If Jones drove it there, then it could have been no more than 270 yards or so.  Still a pretty good feat in that age.

If you are arguing that the hole was stated as 330 yards from that tee, I'd agree it was likely closer to the current measure of 303 yards than to 285 or 330 yards. 

Do you suppose the end point of his drives on 11 suggest he was hitting a draw or hook and that accounted for some of the length?

Peter Wagner

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 02:07:20 AM »
Peter,

The bulk of Alan Wilson's 1924 article, quoted in part above, provides detailed instruction as to how to address all of these issues.   The only thing they appear to have gotten wrong was that they chose to measure along the ground instead of in a straight line.

Hi David,

Too bad, I thought I was on to something there.  If the boys of 1930 Merion eliminated my three points of possible error then I'm afraid they just flat screwed it up.  I know you like this 'ground measurement theory' but I just don't buy it.  (Like I know!)  I think it was something else. 

Think about it:  you're in the Depression, there are tons of guys praying for work, professional survey guys would have been dirt cheap, and instead of hiring them you walk the distance off???  Because of what, it's not important?  I just don't buy that.  There must be another reason.

Bobby Jones was there.  In 1930 terms this is like saying Tiger came to your home course today to play a MAJOR and some of the pins were in the holes and some weren't cuz we're just not that worried about accuracy around here.  And that yardage thing on the card?  Sorry Tiger, just ignore that it's kinda wrong but we don't worry about that at this course.

None of this adds up.

Best,
Peter
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 09:30:43 AM by Peter Wagner »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 05:49:09 AM »
If the boys of 1930 Marion

Peter,

Please pardon the interruption, but as a former Philadelphian I must insist that for you to continue with this discussion, we need you to get the name correct.

It is MERION Golf Club (not Marion).

Thanks

wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 07:59:32 AM »
The back tee used in 1930 is not visible in either the 1930 Golf Illustrated depiction of Jones's shots nor is it shown in the Google Earth aerial.  It is back to the property line further up the hill.  The artist that drew the starting points and lines didn't show it correctly, probably because it would've looked like he was teeing off in the trees.  While I don't think the hole was quite as long as it is indicated in the GI photograph, it isn't as short as you are stating it.  The hole today is 310 yards from the middle of the back tee.  I think another 10 yards to the back of the back tee is easy to imagine.  The hole probably played about 320 yards in two paths and not one straight line from tee to green.   I believe the measurement is off by 15 yards, but that could easily be accounted for where the measurer placed the landing zone and the length of the approach from that spot.  It is conceivable that the landing zone was along the right side of the fairway and not closer to the green.  The line of play is out to the right for the better angle into the offset green.

Jones's tee shots probably went about 270 yards or so.  How do you know he used a driver?  The course conditions were quite firm and rolling the ball an extra 30-40 yards or more past the carry distance is reasonable, especially considering that the other holes where he allegedly produced near 300-yard drives were downhill in the landing area (8,16 and 18).  In very firm conditions, I don't doubt Jones could hit 300 yard drives if conditions allowed.  16 and 18 are in the same direction, how do you know what the wind conditions were that day?

Let us recall the reason why the 10th hole was brought up to begin with.  The measurement of the hole was being used to indicate that the original 10th was an Alps hole with a blind approach shot.  Never mind that the green was built 8' above surrounding grade and the berm behind the green was 15' above surrounding grade.  Never mind that the landing area (which would have been further down the line of play if the hole was actually shorter than indicated) was level and the green completely in view.  The only features that might indicate a Alps like green is the awful berm and the sand fronting the green.  Let us now recall why the Alps quality of this hole was brought up.  It was to indicate the greater involvement of Macdonald and Whigham in the selection of the site and the designs of the holes.  We're still waiting for that but it appears that is forthcoming.  It will be a significant discovery if the materials do indeed indicate this.

David proposes that Merion's course was vastly overstated in terms of length in 1930.  Again, I must ask, what about the holes that were not changed between 1930 and now?  What if the original tees and green sites still exist, even if newer tees were built behind the ones that existed in 1930.  David assumes the current yardage was done in a more accurate manner.  What if you examine the hole lengths in 1930 compared to today?  What pattern emerges?

Hole     1930     Today
1           360       362
2           523       536   (the green was moved nearly 30 yards down range for the '34 Open so it may have been slightly overstated)
3           195       181  (though it is 195 yards from the back of the original back tee)
4           595       600
5           436       418  (off a bit, maybe the 1930 tee was at the tips of the long tee)
6           442       420  (again off a bit)
7           355       350
8           350       360
9           170       169
10         335       310  (measurement points could make up the difference)
11         378       369
12         415       371  a significant overstatement, though the hole turns quite a bit, perhaps measurement points account for a portion of this differential
13         125       127
14         412       408  (the green was moved about 5 yards further for the '34 Open so it may be slightly overstated)
15         370       366
16         435       428
17         215       220
18         455       463
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 10:31:27 AM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 08:16:00 AM »
By the way, the most powerful men at Merion Cricket Club were some of the most powerful men in American business, the top executives of the Pennsylvania Rail Road.  I think it likely that they had men available that could accurately measure the distance of a golf hole.  Howard C. Toomey, a civil engineer formerly of the Pennsylvania RR, who would later partner with William Flynn in their construction business, worked for the Cricket Club.  I suppose he was capable of not making egregious measurement errors.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 08:57:08 AM »
David and Bryan,

I think the turn point you are usine for hole #10 is wrong. I don't know what it does to the numbers, but if you could make the second shot distance about 70 or 75 yards, the middle of the fairway at that range is the likely line off the tee...

Mike Sweeney

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 09:04:51 AM »
Wayne,

Just for clarity, the "Today" distances that you list are today's members back tees of 6458 where the 1981 US Open would have been roughly played, correct? Not the new US Open tees which sound like they fall somewhere between 6900 and 7000.

wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 10:02:43 AM »
"Wayne,

Just for clarity, the "Today" distances that you list are today's members back tees of 6458 where the 1981 US Open would have been roughly played, correct? Not the new US Open tees which sound like they fall somewhere between 6900 and 7000."


Thanks, I should have clarified that. 

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