[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Good to see you posting again.

So...what about your thoughts on the golf course? Or, is this a case of "if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything?"

[JWL]

Mr. Daley

Thank you for your apology.  
I really don't have anything further to add to the conversation, as the rework of some of the golf course is unfortunate, but surely done only to make DR as good as possible by JN.
I will give my opinion of two items that are floating around as fact, and, even in your case, deductions have been make that I consider erroneous.....the first being to think that only two days were spent routing the golf course is just absurd.
Chris Cochran, the lead designer, spent many days walking the property and time at SH, btw.   The routing didn't just develop over a 2 day period.
Secondly, at the opening, the only green that was discussed to change was he 13th...so this conversation about changing 12 greens is something I am not aware of.   I am not saying it is impossible, but even at the opening, I only identified one other green that I thought might need some rework.     Two is a lot, but not unprecedented
If I was the design associate on this project, I would be happy to discuss this project, but since I have very limited knowledge, based on one visit at the course opening, I just don't have anything further to add.   Now, if you want to criticize one of my projects, we can discuss all you wish.   LOL
Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

Has anyone on this site that has not been or is not currently a rater played Dismal River?   I have always wanted to join Dismal River and would love an unbiased opinion.  Please disqualify yourself if you played as a rater tag along, are a member of Sand Hills or Ballyneal, or if you are in the golf business.

[George Pazin]

John, I believe Jay Flemma has posted on Dismal River in the past. He does have a golf column, so he's a likely golf industry person by your standard, however. I don't see why it would cause him to forego objectivity, but you obviously see things differently than I do.

[Forrest Richardson]

I played Dismal River last month. Enjoyed it, but felt many fairways could have been widened. Also, felt many walks were excessive. The other drawback was the No. 1 hole facing due east.

Chris Cochran was the primary design associate from Nickllaus.

While many have criticized the greens, I found them to be very entertaining. It was a never-ending treasure hunt, and a real puzzle.

I enjoyed No. 4 with the cattle pond and windmill. This is a terrific hole, but it would benefit greatly from even more fairway. (I speak from experince!)

This course is not supposed to be Sand Hills or Ballyneal. It is, by design, different. Panmure is not Carnoustie...Pacific is not Bandon...Tobacco Road is not Pinehurst No. 2 ...etc.

As for changes, I have heard there are planned changes. I cannot speak to the specifics. It is generally my feeling that the ownership is chipping away at many things, golf improvement being one aspect.

[Adam Clayman]

Evidence of the re-sloping of greens was more than evident when we were there in July. The tell tale signs of re-sodding was very noticable on several holes. Before going I had heard the number 7 and then I heard the number 14 as for greens altered. In my estimation 12 sounds about right. The major differences, I noted, being the transition from one level to another. In the first year there were little rises before heading down to the lower tiers. Now the transition is smoother to a much less steep section of the greens.



The latest changes I've heard about are going to be to the 18th. Apparently having the blindness, up near the green, doesn't work for the clientel. It really is an unnecessary change, IMO.

[John Kavanaugh]

I played Dismal River last month. Enjoyed it, but felt many fairways could have been widened. Also, felt many walks were excessive. The other drawback was the No. 1 hole facing due east.

Chris Cochran was the primary design associate from Nickllaus.

While many have criticized the greens, I found them to be very entertaining. It was a never-ending treasure hunt, and a real puzzle.

I enjoyed No. 4 with the cattle pond and windmill. This is a terrific hole, but it would benefit greatly from even more fairway. (I speak from experince!)

This course is not supposed to be Sand Hills or Ballyneal. It is, by design, different. Panmure is not Carnoustie...Pacific is not Bandon...Tobacco Road is not Pinehurst No. 2 ...etc.

As for changes, I have heard there are planned changes. I cannot speak to the specifics. It is generally my feeling that the ownership is chipping away at many things, golf improvement being one aspect.

Forrest,

Thank you for that excellent review devoid of pettiness and attempts to be cute with pithy commentary.  Sadly neither you or Flemma are golf civilians with the type of unbiased review capabilities I need.  I just wish someone could review Dismal for what it is...A place to go have fun playing golf with either friends or customers.  Not a potential top 100, not a sister course to Ballyneal or Sand Hills, not a Nicklaus course vs a Doak vs a C&C course.  I just want to know if it is a great place to spend a few days for a single handicap player and his friends.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe Rick Holland would qualify under JakaB's criteria.

I know Rick and think I even played with him at Beverly.  I thought he played Dismal on a rater tag along trip.  Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Adam Clayman]

You're right he doesnt. my bad

John, You should join. The poker room alone is worthy of spending a few days in.

[George Pazin]

Sadly neither you or Flemma are golf civilians with the type of unbiased review capabilities I need.  I just wish someone could review Dismal for what it is...A place to go have fun playing golf with either friends or customers.  Not a potential top 100, not a sister course to Ballyneal or Sand Hills, not a Nicklaus course vs a Doak vs a C&C course.  I just want to know if it is a great place to spend a few days for a single handicap player and his friends.  

Ignoring the thing about Jay - why wouldn't you trust him? He has no agenda, outside of giving his own personal opinion - I am totally confused.

Weren't you the one that bemoaned those who use golf for business reasons? Why would you want to know about DR in regards to golf with customers?

Aside from JK - the evil JK, not the good JK - I can't sat the client wanting the change the greens has any impact on me whatsoever - that could just be a weak client.

[John Kavanaugh]

George,

You can not trust the public opinions of any golf writer or architect.  Every opinion is biased in the fact that they want someone to ask them for another opinion another day.

I don't think there is any question that customer golf is essential in a remote location like at Dismal.  When you are a guy with little draw alone sometimes you need a crutch like a great golf course to get people to spend a long period of time with you.  I do not like unaccompanied customer golf in that it is just a monetary consideration and not an investment in time.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: I am not a rater nor was I a rater when I played DR.  The concept to me was fantastic - Great golf, cool clubhouse with a bunch of things for guys to do like bowling and indoor golf, very nice cabins, stocked trout pond, fly fishing in the DR, a plane to pick you up in Denver, and accessibility to other JN Signature courses, and eventually, a second course at DR.

I played the course and there were some really cool holes but I felt it would be a very difficult walk.  

I don't know if that is the type of review you were looking for but to summarize I thought it would be a great place to join because unlike BN or SH there is so much more to do there besides golf; the issue is the golf.    

[Forrest Richardson]

John — I think you would have fun there. It is a real challenge, especially if you might tackle it from the way-back tees. I did not, so I can only imagine the length and challenge.

It is a great, remote get-a-way. The food is great and accommodations perfect for a few foursomes to get together at night and drink, eat, chat. While in the area there is always other golf to enjoy.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

I knew you had played there and that is why I said or had ever been a rater.  I do like your opinion.  I just called Dismal to see about their current pricing. (I would join sight un seen if they have a zero initiation fee membership drive) and the place sounded busy.  The more I read from the people on this site that hate it the more I am beginning to love the place.  I am the antibiased.

[Adam Clayman]

I'd be happy to spring for that membership if you can show where the word hate is in anyone's past review of the place.

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

I'm attempting to eat Mexican and will happily report back when home.  Looking forward to my next visit for a home and home.

[kurt bowman]

My impression of that place was that as the first post-Sebonack routing, Nicklaus' people were determined to make it a naturalistic routing. They proceeded to produce the routing in, I was told, two days.

It showed it.  


Brad,

What a great way to lie! You were told by someone? Please do tell. Did you learn this out of the Dan Rather playbook? Look, your a critic which requires you review the work of others without bias. I understand that is difficult for you to do as you have business ventures of your own now in the very business you call yourself a critic. I don't understand how you can do both and pretend to be fair. Say that you don't like the routing a Dismal River, just don't print unsubstantiated gossip.

Kurt

[John Kavanaugh]

My impression of that place was that as the first post-Sebonack routing, Nicklaus' people were determined to make it a naturalistic routing. They proceeded to produce the routing in, I was told, two days.

It showed it.  


Brad,

What a great way to lie! You were told by someone? Please do tell. Did you learn this out of the Dan Rather playbook? Look, your a critic which requires you review the work of others without bias. I understand that is difficult for you to do as you have business ventures of your own now in the very business you call yourself a critic. I don't understand how you can do both and pretend to be fair. Say that you don't like the routing a Dismal River, just don't print unsubstantiated gossip.

Kurt

This is why I want to be a member of Dismal.  The guys who work for Nicklaus have balls!!!  I read Brad's post to mean he hated the routing...I can't believe he would say something so ruiness in public about something he liked.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I really like Dismal River.  I think it will get better as time goes on.  They certainly are making the effort.  I don’t know how deep the pockets are but they have put a lot of money into the club.  I hate to think how much “17mile “ drive cost, even if it is only one lane.  

When I was there in August the course was a little ragged.  You could tell where fairways were sodded and ground reworked.  It has some really good holes and some awkward holes.  

#1 is one of those awkward holes. It took three times to figure out where to hit it and I’m still not sure I got it.  The shot into the green is just as uncomfortable.  That doesn’t mean it is a bad hole it get you off to an interesting start.
 The strength of the course lie in the par threes.  I like all of them with the possible exception of 10.  It has a bunker dead center of the green.  I played it with the pin in the front and the back. I can do quirk, but this was just oo much.  It is hard to believe JN designed that hole.
#6 is a wonderful short hole.  From the back tees it is 375 to a narrow strip of fairway.  Not very good from there.  From the member tees it is about 290 yards that gives you all kinds of options.  Great hole.
#7 is a very strong hole.  It is followed by a beaut of a short dogleg par four.  Longer players can go for the green.  Humans like me can decide how close to the garbage short of the green you want to go.

#9 is a very serious par five.  Good hole.  All three shots must be “precise and accurate.”

#13 is a stern test.  Easy drive but the shot to the green is demanding.

I felt the course ended as awkwardly as it began.  I didn’t  like 18 at all, but the head pro said, “they are going to blow it up.”

I’d like to go back in five years and see how it turns out.  It sure has a good start.

The interesting thing is I thought the course was tough as nails.  My wife who only hits it 180 off the tee thought it was more playable than Ballyneal.  Now maybe she had a bad day at Ballyneal but we played DR twice and liked it both times.

[David Stamm]

My impression of that place was that as the first post-Sebonack routing, Nicklaus' people were determined to make it a naturalistic routing. They proceeded to produce the routing in, I was told, two days.

It showed it.  


Brad,

What a great way to lie! You were told by someone? Please do tell. Did you learn this out of the Dan Rather playbook? Look, your a critic which requires you review the work of others without bias. I understand that is difficult for you to do as you have business ventures of your own now in the very business you call yourself a critic. I don't understand how you can do both and pretend to be fair. Say that you don't like the routing a Dismal River, just don't print unsubstantiated gossip.

Kurt

This is why I want to be a member of Dismal.  The guys who work for Nicklaus have balls!!!  I read Brad's post to mean he hated the routing...I can't believe he would say something so ruiness in public about something he liked.

JK, so Urbina, Wagner, Kittleman etc don't because.... I'm sorry why? Is Brad not entitled in a public forum to express that he didn't care for the routing? The man is a critic and is paid for being one. Besides, what do you care what Brad thinks? I thought you only cared about non critics, non raters or non archs in regards to this course?


Kurt, are you saying that Brad Klein lied about hearing this? I would be real sure before calling someone something like this. If he was misinformed, then fine. And I do think someone can be unbiased while performing their own work, so I'm not sure what that has to do with that. Give people credit on this site for making up their own minds on the merits of the course, don't think that everyhting that Brad says is going to make or break our desire to play a course. There has been more than few courses that I had heard were not that good that I played anyway and walked away thinking they were nuts. That's why we have our own opinions. I'd like to think Jacks' name is known enough to CASUAL (non GCA types) observers that any negatives given to the course from someone is not going to make or break the course's future, but maybe I'm naive.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd be happy to spring for that membership if you can show where the word hate is in anyone's past review of the place.

Adam..Thanks, enjoy the writings of Jay Flemma:

The problem wasn't that 18 greens were "sealed off" in full, but the combination of severely uphill, crazy cants seemingly anywhich way that shed balls with an alarming lack of containment, so lets say 15 out of 18 there was no ground shot and the other 3 it wasn't "thread the needle" it was arm the laser beam.

At Ballyneal, I SHOCKED everyone on 17 AND 8 by hitting a punch 5-iron, running it up and finishing ten feet form the pin.  What does that say about my game?  WHat does it say about Neil Regan's game...we are creative and resourceful and play the way the land tells us.  I love the ground game and hate it when people bill things as links and I'm floping wedges and 9-irons all day.  And I really really hate it when they tell me "You swear you're in Ireland" and I'm trying to fight 7-irons in 40 MPH.  GHimme a fighting chance...like at Rawls course.  I played that in a 40 mph gale and rarely left the fwy.

Look, I appreciate how hard everyone worked on it and how cool it looks (except 10), but I prefer something much more natural...especially in a place that's supposed to be all about natural...I mean there's a reason we're all up in arms about Trump in Scotland...

...at least Jack gave us a course with no water hazards.  That would've made it impossible...and the green at 5 is incredible.  A total breakout for him.  Plus four and 6 are excellent as well, he did d anice job hiding the safe protions of the fairway...like the hidden shelves on 17 at Crystal Downs.  Remember how you see the landing shelves when you turn around and look back from the green?

link: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=25469;start=msg473278#msg473278

[Adam Clayman]

Well, He doesn't quite say it but I will still spring for that free initiation.

[John Kavanaugh]

Well, He doesn't quite say it but I will still spring for that free initiation.

They are not offering a free initiation.  I'm just saying I would join sight-un-seen if they would.  I only need a national membership.

I agree that Jay was close but no cigar.  I'll keep looking.

[Adam Clayman]

I did hear they have lowered their lowest priced membership to 30k. That one I won't be springing for.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK, so Urbina, Wagner, Kittleman etc don't because.... I'm sorry why? Is Brad not entitled in a public forum to express that he didn't care for the routing? The man is a critic and is paid for being one. Besides, what do you care what Brad thinks? I thought you only cared about non critics, non raters or non archs in regards to this course?

I have yet to see on associate for any architect besides the guys from Nicklaus come on this site and defend the head architect of their firm.  Yet alone under their full name and against the architectural editor of a leading magazine.  Where have the guys who work for Rees or Fazio been hiding when lies are spread about their offices?  Sorry, but the Nicklaus boys, like Jack, got balls.

I believe everything Brad says since he used me and Jack Nicklaus in the same sentence to make a point.  I would never have dreamed I would be compared to my childhood hero every since I took my first golf lesson from Dick Grout. (Brother of the guy who taught Jack)

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