[John Kavanaugh]

I often play an Elks course in Vincennes, In which is around 10 miles from home.  Last time I bought a season pass it was around $400 for the year plus my dues of $50.  This was an out of state rate that may have now passed me by.

The front nine is the original nine and is as interesting as any classic course of shortness can be given the budget.  The new back nine (1980's) is as bad as golf can be for reasons I can't explain as all I ever have done is pay and play.  Any attempt to explain just how awful every aspect of the design is hurts my head.  My only complaint about the course is that it is far too busy for my tastes with outings, school teams and old men.  It is a fantastic partner in the Vincennes community.

Rich once asked me to do some interesting research but I have failed him miserably.  Just came to mind again as I started the thread.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst. EDIT: Actually, I don't know what "best" means. I'm not qualified to judge. So let me say this: it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!

Its first six holes are all world. I am not exaggerating!

Also, the routing is fantastic, genius quality. Mark my words, this course will achieve its rightful recognition in the golfing world. The Elks have leased it to a company that promises to put money into its upkeep.

Does that still count as BPOE?

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

Though I have never been a member I also play the Sullivan, In Elks course a couple of times a year.  Another very affordable 18 hole layout squeezed on to small a piece of land.  One of my favorite holes in the tri-state is the 260 yd par 4 tenth which runs directly contiguous to a recently widened road.  Anything left of center runs down the road directly onto US 41.

[Dan Herrmann]

There once was a nice quirky Elks course in Hillsboro, Oregon called Orenco Woods.  (Oregon Nursery Company).

I think it's been plowed under for McMansions.

I found this from planning commission notes from 2004:
Robert L. Smith, 1105 SE 52 Ct., Hillsboro, a member of the Elks Lodge, echoed what Mr. Edwards said and added that the golf course was no longer a viable business. The golf course was losing money. If the Elks Lodge was not able to sell this land, they may not be able to continue the same level of charitable giving. He explained why they chose Venture Properties to develop the site and the importance of preserving the natural space. Mr. Smith submitted additional letters of support for the record.

"No longer viable" = "We can sell the land for much more than we make in green fees".

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

Are you talking about the Elks course than Ran plays?  I would consider it still to be BPOE if my brothers get a discount...

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yes, that's the one: Southern Pines.

It mystifies me how this course isn't more highly regarded. I think it has a reputation for poor conditioning. But let me tell you yesterday at least those greens were running faster than #2's.

And this morning I ran into my club's pro down here. He's played everywhere in the US and UK. When I mentioned it to him he got as animated about it as I was. His reaction was an eye opener for me; there is genuine excellence in that course!

(Surely it disproves your earlier comment that the way to get a course into one of those rankings is to have a vocal and well-placed sponsor...)

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

What are the two better courses in Pinehurst?

[John Kavanaugh]

Also, the routing is fantastic, genius quality. Mark my words, this course will achieve its rightful recognition in the golfing world. The Elks have leased it to a company that promises to put money into its upkeep.

I would like to hear another opinion if leasing Southern Pines out is a good thing.  I can only see a leasing company wanting to increase revenue through tourists and that means more length and other stupid tourist ideas.  I'm not feeling this to be a positive development.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hey John,

Our posts must have crossed as I edited mine to read I don't know what "best" (or "better") really means -- but Southern Pines is my *second* favorite course there.

I like Pinehurst #2 better, mainly for the greens but also for the routing (I prefer the walk; although it is a longer one, it's a flatter one), the par 3s, and for the "worst" holes on #2 being preferred to the "worst" on SP.

How bout you?

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

I have not played Southern Pines.  I was concerned you were going to tell me that Tobacco Road was a better course or even Pine Needles.

I have only played Pinehurst #2, Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road, Forest Creek South and parts of an unfinished North.  I too like Pinehurst #2 best.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

John, I can understand that concern. Just passing along what the pro shop guys told me; they said the leasing company plans only to improve the conditioning and market it more widely.  Maybe the local experts can chime in.

I will say its conditioning was plenty fine for me; those greens rolled fast and true.  There were a few areas of rough and fairway where the grass appeared to be a strain that didn't belong on a golf course but on someone's lawn, but they weren't in areas that bothered me.

Mark

[RSLivingston_III]

Maybe we can get Jim Thompson to comment. He is managing the one in Grand Rapids MI.
Is it just me or does it seem like all the Elks courses were designed by Ross?

[Eric_Terhorst]

Is it just me or does it seem like all the Elks courses were designed by Ross?

Ralph,

There is an Elks course in Kankakee, IL, that Dan Moore has on his list of targets that is a Langford-Moreau.  It looks trip-worthy on the web site.

Sorry John, I haven't played it, but I'd be interested to hear from someone who has.

[Kyle Harris]

The State College Elks Course makes for a pleasant diversion with some good holes, and also one of the worst architectural features in the game: "the play to one side of a pole to prevent cutting a corner pole."

It also contains a quirky, uphill 260 yard par 4, and a great finishing stretch: 12-18, which trundles down the hillside and back up. The terrain is much more severe than it appears from US 322.

The 8th and 9th are two of the most terrifying holes I've played in terms of terrain, with 9 being a 210 yard par 3 over a chasm where anything right is death.

There's a good variety in distance in the par 4s and the par 5s are good 2.5 shotters.

All in all, it's very playable and enjoyable, despite some of the short comings.

Nice view of Beaver Stadium from the 12th tee, as well.

[Craig Disher]

Mark,
I've played nearly all the courses in the area and SP is the worst conditioned I've seen. At least one of the golf package companies have de-emphasized it due to client complaints and a group I visit PH with every year refuse to play it anymore. The conditions are fine with me and the course is so good I'd play it any day. But I think the leasing company has a big hill to climb if they want to attract more visitors. The clubhouse area needs work and the course can use a lot more help than just water and fertilizer.

My worry is that the Elks will sell the property for housing. The 9 holes next to the current course are already overgrown and the land is prime for development.

[Jim Sweeney]

HAMilton Elks in Hamilton, Ohio has 18 original Ross holes and a bewer 9 by Hurdzan. The original back nine is very good.

Portsmouth Elks in Portsmouth Ohio is a Ross which is excellent and little changed from the original. AS far as I know only one green has been extended and the routing is completely intact. Originally the Portsmouth CC. IF it werer in a better location I'd try to by it- It is a real gem.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Craig,

There is a development going up to the right of the second and third holes. You can't see it from the second but you can from the third.  This is in addition to the condos / huts already there. Is that where the third nine is / was?

The guys in the pro shop explicitly said the course was being leased not sold.

And surely I played better conditions -- "more than just water and fertilizer:" what do you  mean? I would chop down a few trees here and there, and actually plant trees in one specific location, but it was all I could do not to turn left off 18 green and walk right over to 1 tee. (Maybe we're "bones" men and don't pay too much attention to the skin?)

I can see the complaints about the clubhouse...but I come to play golf, not eat a turkey sandwich!

[Craig Disher]

I know the condos you're talking about - very nice, but being awakened by the 0245 roaring through every night would get old.

Part of the abandoned 9 - a fairway, green, tee box, and tee sign - can be seen to the right of the 13th tee. It's mostly covered by brush. The 9th green can be seen to the right of the 18th. The last time I was there it was being used as a practice pitching area.

Parallel to the par 3 7th was a fairway from the old-old nine. I doubt if anything is left of those holes.

Taking trees out would be easy. E.g., on the 5th fairway the bunkers on the left which would catch a tee shot running down the slope are well surrounded by trees; the trees sitting in the old bunker on the right of #11 could go; etc. etc. Many of the bunkers have lost their edges thanks to the sand-pro. Some spots it's impossible to tell where the bunker begins. The ones on the 5th fairway are like sandy smudges.

A couple years ago I played the course and was pleasantly shocked by how open the area around the 1st fairway looked. I asked Ran how the club had decided to take down so many trees - he said that a wind storm had them out. Maybe another kamikaze attack would help.

[Rich Goodale]

I often play an Elks course in Vincennes, In which is around 10 miles from home.  Last time I bought a season pass it was around $400 for the year plus my dues of $50.  This was an out of state rate that may have now passed me by.

The front nine is the original nine and is as interesting as any classic course of shortness can be given the budget.  The new back nine (1980's) is as bad as golf can be for reasons I can't explain as all I ever have done is pay and play.  Any attempt to explain just how awful every aspect of the design is hurts my head.  My only complaint about the course is that it is far too busy for my tastes with outings, school teams and old men.  It is a fantastic partner in the Vincennes community.

Rich once asked me to do some interesting research but I have failed him miserably.  Just came to mind again as I started the thread.

Don't mope, John.  Lesser men than you also failed me miserably in that writing project (on courses other than Vincennes).

Slainte

Rich

[Tom Roewer]

HAMilton Elks in Hamilton, Ohio has 18 original Ross holes and a bewer 9 by Hurdzan. The original back nine is very good.

Portsmouth Elks in Portsmouth Ohio is a Ross which is excellent and little changed from the original. AS far as I know only one green has been extended and the routing is completely intact. Originally the Portsmouth CC. IF it werer in a better location I'd try to by it- It is a real gem.

Jim - You're so right about Portsmouth.  I believe one of my golf heroes, Howard Baker Saunders probably still holds the course record there.  Mr. Kavanaugh, sounds like you're in the area and should take a trip over.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Don't know if this is a comprehensive list, but here it is:
http://www.elks.org/lodges/LocalFacilities.cfm?LookFor=4&Submit=Facilities

[Ron Farris]

The Elks course in my home town is a bit of a Jekyll & Hyde course.  The front nine was a fun, short course.  The total course is measures 5909 yards.  The front nine has a creek running through the course, but it only comes into play in a great way on the 8th hole where one has to can carry the creek on the drive and then the creek fronts the green.  The ninth hole is a par 3 hole with overhanging tree branches that can affect the shot into the green if the pin is right.  The back nine which was added, maybe 13 years ago, has often been referred to as playing on Mars.  It is on poor soil and the back nine is a housing project more than a golf course.  The developer offered to build the back nine for the club as part of his housing development.  The green are "drop down" greens vs. the "pushup greens" on the front.  I say drop down because the developer simply dropped soil from lake excavation on the existing turf and rough shaped the mud into greens.  I saw the back nine under construction and asked the super when they were going to shape the greens.  He said they were seeding tomorrow.  

It is the classic case where the course was more fun as a nine hole course than it is as an 18 holer.

[Dan Moore]

John K,

Who designed the original 9 holes at Vincennes?  

[SPNC_Chris]

Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst.... it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!

Correction. The Southern Pines Golf Club (Elks Club) is in Southern Pines.  

[Rich Goodale]

John K,

Who designed the original 9 holes at Vincennes?  

Dan

John K doesn't know (at least he hasn't told what he knows), but I suspect that Archie Simpson (pro there from 1922-1926)was involved.

Rich

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