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Rich Goodale

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2007, 12:44:19 PM »
Oy vey!

One of the French guys, Kaleka (auld alliance and aw that...)  seems to be pulling away, but even more impressively, Oor Andrew birdied the 14h :o to come back in 34.

Great stuff, even though it isn't tghe Shield......

Reesharrrrd

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2007, 12:49:00 PM »
It has continued to rain a bit harder all afternoon here. It is not getting any warmer either. The leaders will finish around 7 p.m. or so and visibility will be very poor by then.

I have been impressed with how many of the players have kept their composure and their golf swings together for 36 holes under what have been very tough conditions. It is doubly impressive considering how young many of the players are.

Andrew B. carded a 74 this afternoon, with a lost ball on #8. He also holed a 50 ft. putt for his first ever birdie on #14, Foxy.
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 01:35:37 PM by David_Tepper »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2007, 01:14:38 PM »
Rihc I guess one could say I digressed. lol

Rich Goodale

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2007, 01:18:38 PM »
That's OK, El Tigre

We expect that of you.

Ricarod

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2007, 01:39:46 PM »
Shivas -

They played in 3-somes the first 2 days and the rounds were taking 4  to 4 1/2 hours.

Today, they played in 2-somes and the rounds were taking 3 1/2 hours, which is not bad considering how difficult the weather and  the visibility was.

DT
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 01:40:38 PM by David_Tepper »

Rich Goodale

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2007, 01:51:00 PM »
David

If they were playing so quickly, surely nobody was using a "cheater" line? :o

Rich

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2007, 02:53:34 PM »
Am I right in thinking that Alyth's Kevin McAlpine now holds both the Scottish Matchplay and Strokeplay trophies ?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2007, 02:58:33 PM »
Phew the Frenchman pulled one right out of their national tradition for clutch play. A DB on 18 to finish 2 back.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2007, 06:24:55 PM »
Brian -

You are indeed correct. McAlpine is now the holder of both titles.

You can read the full story at www.scottishgolfunion.org

DT

Jim Nugent

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2007, 04:17:31 AM »
Hopefully Andrew will tell us about his experience in the tournament and on the course.  

Rich Goodale

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2007, 05:09:21 AM »
Agreed, Jim

Andrew knows the course quite well, having played in the Carnegie Shield for the past 5+ years (winning twice).  I suspect he will confirm that the course was playing relatively easy, given the soft greens and benign rough that exists this early in the year.

Rich

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2007, 08:39:21 PM »
Rich - What I was trying to say was that the course is magnificent.  Don't change anything, regardless of outcome scoreingway.  Implements and balls will never overcome Dornoch !

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2007, 10:36:13 PM »
I am no longer in Dornoch, but unfortunately I'm not yet back in California either.  This has been one long day of delayed flights and reroutes, and right now I'm hoping my flight from O'Hare doesn't get cancelled like many others apparently are.

First off, let me say that anyone going to Dornoch that's looking for somewhere to stay should definitely ask David Tepper about his place.  It's perfectly located and is very nice.  Thanks again, David.

Some quick thoughts for now ...

This is the first time I've been to Dornoch this time of year.  All of my other trips have been in August and I was eager to see the whins in-bloom (which I caught the tail end of).  As Rich notes above, one of the things that surprised me most during my rounds on Wednesday and Thursday was how thin a lot of the rough was.  It was still thick to the left of four and 12, and in-between those two holes, but a lot of other areas were much less of a penalty than I've seen in August.

On Wednesday it rained all day long and that had the course playing as soft as I'd ever seen it.  Rain again on Saturday night and all day Sunday also contributed to soft conditions on the last day.  This was very different from what I was used to and took some getting used to; I think this fooled me more than it helped me since I have so much experience with shots running out much more than they did this week.  Certain shots were much easier to get close or hold greens, particularly landing on Foxy and holding the green and hitting a lofted (rather than pitch and run) shot to a front hole location on 15.  Nine and 12 also played much longer and I struggled to reach them in two when in the past I reached with mid and long irons.

The SGU used two blue tees I'd never played before: the 180 tee on 10 and the back tee (not sure of the yardage) on 15.  10 played down wind in almost all of my rounds so it didn't make much of a difference, but 15 was like a completely different hole from there.  I've never had to worry about the mound in the fairway, and playing down wind a drive would usually get to just short or on the green, or you'd be left with a 30-50 yard shot.  With the back tee, the mound is 270 to carry (too much for me) and you have to choose either the left or right side.  Left is much narrower but the only way to really get close to a back right hole location, I would imagine.  Downwind I still got that very tricky 30-50 yard shot, but otherwise I hit a fuller shot in that could be run up or lofted on.  I was quite impressed with the hole from there.

We didn't play the way back left tee on 12, though now I'd like to just to see how it changes the hole.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2007, 02:47:41 PM »
Another thing I found interesting was how some of the players I played with chose to play 16 and 17.  Over the three days I played with someone from Inverness who regularly plays the Shield as well, and two other players from Scotland that hadn't played the course much before.

Both myself and the player from Inverness played 16 and 17 cautiously from the tee.  I used a two iron and three wood on 16 and a four iron and two iron on 17, all depending on the wind of course.  Note that the course was playing very soft so I was left at the top of the hill two out of my four rounds on 17 even though I expected my ball to run down.

The other two players (who I think before the practice round had one combined round on the course before) both used driver on 16 and 17, regardless of the conditions.  They both tried to play for the top level of 16 and ended up fine every time; one of the shots was pulled and got lucky to run left and short of the quarry instead of bound forward into it.  On 17 they also both used driver every time, regardless of the conditions.  The one time I hit four iron because it was down wind, the player who hit driver got very lucky to stay short of trouble (again, it was soft).  The other player hit very low running drivers into the wind that landed on top and ran down to the bottom.  This turned out to be a great play and if I had ever practiced that shot before it's what I would have done too once I saw him do it.

Anyhow, I was shocked to see the drivers on 16 but I can remember a time when I always hit driver or three wood on 16, and three wood on 17.  Now I'm just too scared to use so much club from seeing my shots and others head into the trouble that's all around on these two holes.

I'm trying to figure out if I'm playing the holes correctly because I know better, or if they are because they aren't crippled by fear from previous experience.

I'll write more on the hole locations used by the SGU later ...
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2007, 10:23:18 PM »
Thanks for the discussion Andrew.

Rich Goodale

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2007, 12:22:28 AM »
Ditto Tiger's thanks,. Andrew.

Excellent observations re 16 and 17.  After you've had one of your drives on 16 in July/August seemingly going down the almost middle of the fairway and then banking left hard and fast as Fireball Roberts to end up in the quarry, it's very hard to get the thought out of your mind whenever you stand on the 16th tee.  However, when the course is still coming out of hibernation, ubnless the wind is really strong and behind, or you are Bubba Watson, driver is a safe option.  Of course, speaking of Watson's, Tom tried to drive the 16th in 1981 in one of his rounds there, 3 times.  The first two went into the quarry, but not in the left corner, well up on the upper plateau.  His third came up about 10 yeards short of the green.  It was very windy that day....

As for the 17th, taking driver there in July/August is the play of the fool, although I saw one Shield final lost by a very wise local man (Stuart Shaw) who had a brain fart when got to that tee on one of those days.  I'm still not sure about the recently in vogue driving strategy of long iron/longer iron to the upper left corner.  10 days ago, I thought I had hit a perfect 4-iron to the corner, only to see it trickle over the hill.  I ended up hitting 6-iron from the bottom, rather than 4-5 iron from the top, and came as close to getting birdie on that hole as I have in 3-4 years.  A controlled rescue club/3-wood will get you into short iron range if you aim at the marker pole rather than the corner.  Sure the shot is blind, but it's a punchbowl green and anything hit anywhere near on line will end up close if you have the proper length.  The only thing you lose is that you have to heuch your clubs down the hill and back up again, rather than depositing them by the 18th tee as you walk to the green, putter in hand....

Keep up the good work.  I want to hear about the hole locations.

PS--are you coming back in August?

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2007, 08:42:20 AM »
I'm still not sure about the recently in vogue driving strategy of long iron/longer iron to the upper left corner.  10 days ago, I thought I had hit a perfect 4-iron to the corner, only to see it trickle over the hill.  I ended up hitting 6-iron from the bottom, rather than 4-5 iron from the top, and came as close to getting birdie on that hole as I have in 3-4 years.  A controlled rescue club/3-wood will get you into short iron range if you aim at the marker pole rather than the corner.  Sure the shot is blind, but it's a punchbowl green and anything hit anywhere near on line will end up close if you have the proper length.  The only thing you lose is that you have to heuch your clubs down the hill and back up again, rather than depositing them by the 18th tee as you walk to the green, putter in hand....

I very much prefer hitting my approach shots from down below on 17 for two reasons.  The one that you mentioned is having a shorter distance and, therefore, getting to hit a much shorter iron in.  This is just easier because you're hitting a shorter club, but also essentially takes the trouble short out of play (since you can land it on the green rather than short).  A second reason is that your shot is protected from the wind longer from down below (as it rises out of the valley) rather than being in the wind the entire time.  You are also more protected from the wind while you play your shot, which I find actually does a lot to enable you to believe it's even possible to hit a good shot while you're swinging.  Feeling the gusts of wind while playing the shot definitely brings additional doubt into one's mind and forces you to think about things like keeping your balance instead of your target.  All that said, I had pretty good luck from up above last week when the soft conditions fooled me into leaving it on top twice.

A hole where I really prefer to be down below is eight.  However, out of my four competition rounds, I was only able to reach down below once despite hitting driver each time (even though I hit a few of them really well).  The wind and soft ground really made this hole play much longer for me.

Quote
Keep up the good work.  I want to hear about the hole locations.

I thought I had kept the hole locations sheets from each round, but I only found the sheets for round two and the one for three and four (which were the same being played on the same day).  I'll try to recall the locations from the first day by memory with descriptions rather than the actual numbers (first number is from front, the second number is the distance from a specific side of the green).

1: Back middle, just right of hollow on left; 12 7R; 16 7L
    - Aside from the first day, these hole locations were quite tame.

2: Back right; 13 7R; 28 6L
    - They used two hole locations well to the back (on the higher, flatter area) and one that was just on the front.  I'm actually used to seeing most of the hole locations in the middle portion between the areas they used so all of these felt closer to the edge of the green than usual.

3: Just past middle and just to the left of the ridge that runs through the middle; 31 11L (on line with the previous day's hole, but further back); 21 7R
    - I think they made good use of the ridge running through the green on the first and last day.  The ridge confuses you about the line and speed more than it should.  The two left hole locations made coming in from the right side of the fairway better, which brings the bunkers right into play off the tee, but they put the hole locations too far back in such soft conditions for it to actually matter.  The last day hole location is a tough one, speed wise, since everything right of it falls off the green, but the very soft conditions made it a non-issue (you still had to hammer your putt).

4: The great middle left location on the plateau; 36 C; 16 8R
    - The first day's location is a great one since it's very difficult to get the ball onto the plateau from the fairway (it's tiny and sloped) and the slopes up to the plateau are quite severe; I hit it long and ran my first putt 20 feet past because I was trying to make sure I got it up to the plateau (the quick change to downhill once I got it there is what got me).  The second day's hole was just past the ridge running mid-way through the green, but in the center rather than to the right so the effects of the ridge (that make the putt slow up, fast down, and break hard right) were minimized.  The last day was in the collection area front right; maybe they were encouraging birdies for well struck shots and anticipating difficult up and downs from just short for missed plays?

5: Middle depth, right half; 9 7L; 36 C
    - The first two were pretty standard: the first asking you to challenge the right side for a short putt or forcing you to have a tricky downhill putt if you bail left, and the second right on the front bringing the front bunkers into play if the wind is misjudged.  The last day I think they missed out by not using my favorite hole location on this green: the area between the two slopes on the back left sitting about even with the second right greenside bunker.  This hole location is great.  If you want to get it close you either have to carry it precisely within a three yard window and hit it well enough to stop right there, or bounce it back there but challenge the left of the green since the first ridge will take the ball sharply to the right.  Even the bail out area (directly right and a bit short) is tough to get to, so you end up with lots of really interesting putts.  This hole location is a good example of a way to cause the player to have to think even on a very short approach shot (assuming that player knows where the hole is).

6: Front center; 17 5R; 21 5L
    - This green is so narrow that the only thing that matters from the tee is the depth.  Once you get up there, though, the most interesting hole to putt to was the last day, with a sharp left to right slope from the front back to the hole that looks like it breaks a third of the amount that it actually does; good thing I've had that one a few times.

7: Just past center on the left side; 18 9L; 19 8R
    - Into the wind, from the new medal tee, and with relatively little roll, this hole was always playing as a par five with a 30 to 50 yard approach shot for me.  I thought they would have made use of the low area in the back and the front left hole location, but they didn't.  The latter is particularly interesting since it really requires you to stay right for your shot into the green, and any miss to the left of the green has a much more difficult up and down than it appears.

8: Wow, I just don't remember; 13 5R; 21 8L
    - The two I can remember were good and commonly seen (by me) hole locations.  I'd guess the first day's hole was cut at the back, which is the other one I see a lot.

9: Again I'm drawing a blank; 24 8R; 28 6L
    - The second day's hole was quite close to the right side and both myself and a fellow competitor had putts from off the green right.  This putt is slower than it looks because of a slope away from the green.  That location also brings the front right bunkers into play if a player is drawn to hit his shot at the hole rather than the middle of the green.  The last day's location was situated nicely behind a subtle but clearly visible roll in the green (that from the middle of the green turned out to slow the putt down and move the ball a bit left).  This green is mostly flat with a few of these "rolls" that make putts difficult to read (I find these much harder than large, obvious slopes on holes like four), and I thought they made good use of this roll here.

I'm going to quit for now and do the back nine later.  I'm a bit gun-shy now that I'm forgetting some of the holes from the first day.

Quote
PS--are you coming back in August?

Yes, I'll be there for the week of the Shield, Saturday to Sunday.  I'm rushing back so soon to make the NCGA Match Play at your favorite course (Spyglass Hill).
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2007, 09:04:18 AM »
Andrew, I have always thought Rihc was tough on Spyglass just to be difficult. He knows how good it is.

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2007, 09:09:58 AM »
Andrew, I have always thought Rihc was tough on Spyglass just to be difficult. He knows how good it is.

I was actually serious with that comment (for once).  From the posts I've read, he seems to really like Spyglass, much more than I do.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Rich Goodale

Re:Scottish Amateur Stroke Play at Royal Dornoch
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2007, 01:10:38 PM »
Andrew

I have always defended Spyglass from the sliongs and arrows of outrageous Cajuns.  If you cut down 90% of the trees and did a little tweaking of the architecture, it could rival Cypress, except for cachet.  Good luck in the tourney.

PS--great stuff on the hole locations.  Also, interesting to remember how hard 7 and 8 are into the wind from the back tees.  Given how long the course played going out, the good scoring is indicative of the soft conditions.  Last time they played 72 with nearly as good of a field (2003 North of Scotland Open Amateur) the winner shot 296 and was the only one to break 300.  This was late August, when the greens were stimping 14 or so.  I remember that year, as I'm sure do you......
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 01:25:59 PM by Richard Farnsworth Goodale (patent pending) »

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