[Patrick_Mucci]

While playing Sleepy Hollow I noticed some interesting features on holes I'd yet to play.

While teeing off on # 4 I noticed the punchbowl green on # 15 and the turbo boost on the left side leading to it.

While teeing off on # 5 I noticed the approach area on # 7, the Reverse Redan.

On a number of occassions I was given a preview of what lay ahead.

Is this random luck or the genius of the routing and the architect ?

I found this especially informative on holes that would prove to be blind, in whole or in part.

What other courses provide a sneak preview of the architecture, the surroundings, a preview that CAN'T be obtained during the play of the hole ?

Is this feature a strong argument against the seperation of holes ?

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

You should make the journey to Wisconsin and play Lawsonia Links. It's a good case study in exactly what you describe, because it has a wide-open feel (augmented in recent years by an agressive and wise tree-cutting effort) and several shots on both nines that are blind or semi-blind. Some are blind without being able to have a sense of seeing it beforehand (like the tee shot at the 2nd), but several are not, and an observant golfer can get a good sense of Langford/Moreau's utiltization of the land and how it impacts shots.

[JLahrman]

At Camargo, the 7th green is several feet below the fairway and has two large bunker in front of it (see Ran's course profile).  However, one can clearly see the green from the fourth fairway which runs directly behind the 7th green.  Given the size of the green I would have to believe Raynor intentionally routed the course this way (although the club uses colored flags today).

[Tom_Doak]

I have to say I think those things are just fortunate accidents on the part of the architect.

Well, maybe not, let me think it through.  Raynor built a lot of Alps or punchbowl greens.

At Chicago Golf Club, it's #12, and you can see that hole location from #9 tee.  At The Creek, it's #6, no preview there ... but it is downhill.  At Shoreacres there is no blind green ... what's up with that?  At Fishers Island, there's no preview for #4.  Unfortunately, I don't remember Fox Chapel or Mountain Lake well enough to say.

[Michael Dugger]

I think it is invaluable to the player to get a load of the 6th green at Pacific Dunes while playing the 2nd and walking to the 3rd tee.  

Otherwise you might not have a clue how long and narrow that green is, nor how the angle of play from the middle of the fairway really encourages balls to roll over and down near the 2nd green.

[RichMacafee]

This 'previewing' is a real feature of Kingston Heath, and one of my favourite aspects of the course. If it was intentional, it is brilliant. However, I have never heard or read anywhere that it was intentional, so I'm assuming it can be put down to good fortune.

The 6th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th pin positions are very difficult to precisely determine from your approach position in the fairway (or on the tee in the case of 15).

Every one of these greens can be previewed before you get to them though:

6th (from 1st tee), 9th (8th tee), 11th (coming off 2nd tee, when you can also check the 5th green), 13th (coming off 11th tee), 15th (14th fairway), 17th (7th green).

[Tim Gavrich]

While playing Sleepy Hollow I noticed some interesting features on holes I'd yet to play.

While teeing off on # 4 I noticed the punchbowl green on # 15 and the turbo boost on the left side leading to it.

While teeing off on # 5 I noticed the approach area on # 7, the Reverse Redan.

On a number of occassions I was given a preview of what lay ahead.

Is this random luck or the genius of the routing and the architect ?

I found this especially informative on holes that would prove to be blind, in whole or in part.

What other courses provide a sneak preview of the architecture, the surroundings, a preview that CAN'T be obtained during the play of the hole ?

Is this feature a strong argument against the seperation of holes ?

This reminds me of my musing from a few months ago about the description of #14 at Hidden Creek, where it is evidently all-but-impossible to discern the depth of the pin from the tee.  Without dredging up that argument again, I'd like to say first that I quite like this idea of "previewing" and am befuddled by how few players appear to do it, and second that I would change my specific position re: 14 at Hidden Creek if such a "preview" was available.

[Jeff Doerr]

Patrick,

I started a thread similar to this a little while ago in response to thoughts I had about the Erin Hills thread. The blind par three there is visible previously if you look for it.

Even when a flag is visible, it is often hard to determine where it is. I think an architect that routes you to a preview - if you are wise enough to use it - is indeed genius.

It is interesting that Tom calls many of them fortunate accidents. I think the accident is NOT looking around as you play and anticipating. Unless the course is perfectly marked with pin sheets this is critical to playing the course well.

[Andy Troeger]

While the previews are certainly a nice feature, I would have a hard time believing that they are prioritized when routing a course. If its practical to have them, great, but I can't believe that there are not many more important things to worry about for most architects.

I think more than anything its just dependant on the nature of the site. A more open site allows for more previews than wooded or secluded sights. With today's technology and pin sheets and such, it really does not matter that much anymore (except perhaps when playing a course for the first time).

[Tom_Doak]

Previewing may be a great feature, but I have still yet to hear from any architect [in history] who noted that he did it on purpose.  It is a "fortunate accident" that can only happen if the architect believes in intermingling the routing of holes so that different greens come together ... which some of us believe in much more than others, but which is also partly dependent on the nature of the site and the conditions.  (You can't achieve this on a course with double-loaded housing.)

I've done lots of holes where I noticed this feature ... starting with High Pointe, where you need to look at the pin on the ninth at High Pointe when you are on the sixth tee.  But it was an accident that you can.

[Tom Roewer]

Tom D.:  You get a good look at the back of #15 (Punchbowl) green @ Mountain Lake from the island tee on #5, across the pond east, however the first time there one is probably consumed with the look of that tee too much to notice #15.  And I distincly remember the look at #10 green @ Chicago GC from the fairway on #9.  From the side it looked almost unplayable with the pin perched on the hump.

[Rich Goodale]

Previewing may be a great feature, but I have still yet to hear from any architect [in history] who noted that he did it on purpose.

This may be true, Tom, but some of the greatest courses (Cypress Point, Dornoch, Carnoustie, etc.) and some of the not so great but by great architects (e.g. Mackenzie's Pitreavie) have this feature.

Why don't you try to do it on purpose, and maybe you'll go down in history as one of the greatest of the greats?

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

I could take credit for a lot of it now if I wanted to, since we've done a fair percentage of courses where the routing is tight enough together to offer such possibilities, and I've built a lot of greens which are severe enough that you would benefit from a preview.

[Rich Goodale]

Keep up the good work, Tom

Rich

[Ed_Baker]

Pat,

With the tree removal that has evolved as part of the Master Plan Charles River has many holes that can be previewed easily, #6 can be seen in entirety while playing #2,#7 pin can be seen with some neck craning coming off of #2 tee, #5 pin position can ONLY be seen from #3 tee you can't tell exactly where the pin is while playing #5 from the fairway.

The interesting thing about Charles River is that if you take the long way around driving to the club you can pick up the following pin positions before you even hit a practice ball, # 1,18 & 9 can be seen driving in the driveway, #2,3,5 can be seen on Winchester st.11, 15,16, can be seen from Nahatan st. Pretty funny actually when you can know where 9 pins are before you get out of your car. not that it makes it any easier to putt !!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat,

  I think one of the endearing things about Garden City is exactly that-the ability to see holes to come while playing holes earlier in the round.  Specifically, from #4 tee, you have a great view of #16 green.  From 4 green, you can see 8 green, and from 6 tee, you can see the hole locations on 7 green and 10 green.  
Walking from 5 green to 6 tee, you can see the hole locations on 14 green, 15 green, and 13 green if you look hard.  
Seeing these locations earlier in the round provides the golfer time to think about the shot beforehand, and perhaps play with their mind, especially when on some of the holes, such as the back bunker on 8 and the greenside bunkers on 14, are absolute death for players who happen to find their ball there.  Seeing 14 early allows you to think about how far to the left on #14 fairway you would ideally want to be—a lot of golfers in the right side of the fairway will have to come across the large right side fairway bunker (with the directional flag) and the right side greenside bunkers.  
For #10, seeing the hole location allows the player the select the appropriate club for the approach—bounce the ball on from the front or fly it halfway on to the green?  The same goes for #13 and 15, where the greens fall away to one side or the other.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I've noticed, on more than a few classic era courses, that playing from the 1st tee allows for an inordinate number of previews, but, playing from the 10th tee doesn't afford nearly as many preview opportunities.

In light of that, do you still feel that this wasn't a conscious design element ?

Doug,

I'd agree.

Nowhere is that more critical than on # 7 where you can see exactly where the hole on # 10 is.

I've also found it very helpful on # 1, viewing # 2, since it's very difficult to get a feel for where the hole is cut from the tee.

[Eric Pevoto]

If you've been given one look, is it really blind?  These sort of routing "accidents," if so, should seem to be an opportunity for the architect to do something unordinary.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Eric;

  That's an interesting question, and I'm not certain of the answer.  I can tell you that it's still a blind or partially obscured shot from the fairway when you come to the particular hole, and it doesn't take away from the challenge of the shot.

Thinking about it, maybe it makes the shot tougher, because you know what you have to do.  At GCGC, the wind can and does change direction frequently--so it really comes down to execution.  Yes, you can get a preview of the hole location on a number of holes, but can you place the ball in the correct location of the fairway, say, on #14?  Can you drive to just right of center on #16 to have a look right up the green?  Can you hit the shot on the right trajectory into #10 in order to have the ball release to the back of the green (for a back hole location) or land it short so it bounces on (for front hole locations).  

One of the things that is so great about the course is that the holes keep changing direction.  The exception is 5 and 6 play in roughly the same direction, and 7 and 8 back the other way.

[Tim Bert]

I thought the preview of #7 at Ballyneal was nicely done.  Given that many of the holes were created in isolation, was that not planned?

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you've been given one look, is it really blind?  

In most cases, yes, because the angles of observation are substantively different.

In addition, rarely does a golf ball land in the same position on repeat play and rarely is the hole also cut in the same location.[/color]

These sort of routing "accidents," if so, should seem to be an opportunity for the architect to do something unordinary.  


I'd agree, that's why the appeal seems to be on blind or awkward holes.[/color]

[Mark Saltzman]

I was considering starting a similar topic, but not surprisingly, Mr. Mucci had already thought of the idea.

As I played Old Town I thought of this several times.  The green on 7 cannot be seen from the fairway, but one is given the chance to see the pin position as you walk by on 4.  The pin location cannot be seen on 12 (unless you run forward 100 yards), but the knowledgeable player can take a look from the 4th or the 6th or the 7th.  The wild green undulations cannot be seen on the 15th green, but can be seen  when you walk by that green on the 14th.

I suppose these could all be coincidences, but it certainly didn't feel that way. 

Could it be that, knowing that there will be an opportunity to see these greens from other places on the course, Mr. Maxwell was willing to make these greens more difficult than if one could not see them before playing them?


I also noted this when walking by the 7th green at Plainfield, while playing the 4th hole.  The short-right bunker is some 35 yards short of the green and a 'speed-slot' available to the player who carries it.  None of this is noticeable from the fairway.

[Ed Oden]

Damn, I thought I was pretty observant when I started this thread... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43475.0.html  But now I find out Mucci trumped me by 3 years.  Mark, I am holding you personally responsible for bursting my bubble. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Ed,

Interesting.  I was thinking about CGC as well.  The one that immediately came to mind was 7 from 6 tee.  You should have told me to look at the pin on 8 as I was driving in! I was at a serious disadvantageous. 

The green on 15 at OTC, as seen from 14 fairway, was what really made me think of starting a thread of this kind.  It is so bold, but largely obscured by the fronting bunker when playing 15.  Somehow I felt that Maxwell wouldn't make a green like that, with so many places that are not recoverable from, if you weren't given the opportunity to see it earlier.

[Brett_Morrissy]

I am not sure when TD completed the routing of construction of Ballyneal, but the view of #7 pin position as you walk down #4 (I think), is a real tease and informative as well, for what is to come, one of my favorite features at Ballyneal.

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