[Mike Hendren]

The bunker behind the 5th green at Augusta National Golf Club works well in tandem with the green's internal contours.  

Aside from the prototypical in-lieu-of-road bunker and angled green, what are some other examples where rear bunkering is truly strategic?

Mike

[ed_getka]

I'm thinking, good to see you here my friend.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike,
I'm thinking.. if you could elaborate on your first statement we all might learn something.

And on your second statement I might try to argue that a bunker could never be strategic.  It's placement, however, could. And as it relates to back bunkering,  many of them seem like they are placed there to affect the golfer psychologically, effecting the golfer's strategy.

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't think a bunker in the back of the green would ever disrupt my intentions to play a golf hole. Most of the ones I see are to stop the ball from going somewhere else that is even worse. I can't think of any examples on good courses just yet, but I am trying because I like this question.

[Mike Hendren]

Adam,

Mere speculation on my part, understand.  The hole location directly in front of the rear bunker at Augusta's 5th appears to be in a small bowl, with any approach coming up short funneling back or perhaps down to the right.  The challenge is exascerbated by the fact that the approach is struck from an uphill lie.  The slightly long approach is perhaps more desirable than being short as it leaves a simple, short uphill bunker shot.  On the other hand, the approach that finds its way to the bottom of that bunker leaves more sand to carry without the benefit of the upslope lie, leaving a real possibility of the sand shot going long and feeding away from the hole.  

Make sense?

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

I don't think a bunker in the back of the green would ever disrupt my intentions to play a golf hole. Most of the ones I see are to stop the ball from going somewhere else that is even worse. I can't think of any examples on good courses just yet, but I am trying because I like this question.

Glenn,

I agree.  Death long is way down the list of bad swing thoughts as I stand over the ball!  

Mike

[Tom Roewer]

Glenn:  I don't think that you fear them from the fairway, but the back bunker at #5 Chicago Golf Club and the one at # 11 at CGC I think are really good examples. The fairway shots are slightly uphill and back pin placements bring these into play.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Bogey,

I can't remember for sure, but I want to say that Camargo has one on #3. The green slopes back to front pretty considerably and in situations like that, a bunker in the back does take on a short sided comparison in my mind. I think there are some others out there, but memory is just not that good. I rarely hit the ball close or long, so it kind of escapes me.

[ed_getka]

And on your second statement I might try to argue that a bunker could never be strategic.  It's placement, however, could. And as it relates to back bunkering,  many of them seem like they are placed there to affect the golfer psychologically, effecting the golfer's strategy.

Adam,
     You seem to be contradicting yourself in this statement. I am a bit obtuse at times, so could you clarify what you are saying.

[Evan Fleisher]

Glenn:  I don't think that you fear them from the fairway, but the back bunker at #5 Chicago Golf Club and the one at # 11 at CGC I think are really good examples. The fairway shots are slightly uphill and back pin placements bring these into play.  

Tom,

You beat me to a couple of prime examples...good work!

I was also thinking about a couple at Lawsonia Links but cannot think of the hole numbers.  Mayor Daley...thoughts?!?!?

[Mike Hendren]

Back to back examples at Lookout Mountain CC:

I'm not sure one can toss the ball underhanded from the back bunker of the Eden hole (16th) and keep it on the green.  Yet the uphill nature of the hole and slight bank in front of the green makes the shot all carry.  One less club for an intentional miss just short of this 170 yards hole might be the smart play.  

Also, it is so tempting to try to hit a low runner that climbs the bank to a rear hole location at the double-plateau 17th green.  A little long and the short steep bunker shot back will likely scoot into 3-putt territory.  Disappointing to double-bogey this hole from 120 yards out.  

Mike

[wsmorrison]

Wilson and Flynn used back bunkers behind greens.  The original bunkers were shallow and above green level.  With the green sloping away from the player, the shot requirements were pretty severe.  Merion East has back bunkers on 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th (back right), 9th, 10th, 13th, 14th and 17th holes and Merion West has one behind the 7th and 13th (Richie Valentine).  An approach that lands in any one of these can be real trouble.

[mike_malone]

 The My Home Course profile shows two holes at Rolling Green that have bunkers in the rear of the green  . These were added after the course opened in 1926 sometime before the first 1930's photos.

    The approach to each hole is short . The bunkers affect thinking significantly. Since the left to right angle of the greens creates a 1/2 shot difference it makes a difference what club you select. In each instance hitting to the right of them brings into play severe downslopes. #12 allows properly hit balls to roll back toward the center of the green;#16 does not.

      It is exciting to get the "member" bounce onto the green when you avoid them.

[JLahrman]

Bogey,

I can't remember for sure, but I want to say that Camargo has one on #3. The green slopes back to front pretty considerably and in situations like that, a bunker in the back does take on a short sided comparison in my mind. I think there are some others out there, but memory is just not that good. I rarely hit the ball close or long, so it kind of escapes me.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2817

Glenn, here is Scott's aerial of Camargo.  I suppose from the side of the fairway 3 could be viewed as having a back bunker.  I seem to remember the one on 13, in part because it isn't really visible from the fairway, but in this picture it looks to be more on the left side of the green.

[Glenn Spencer]

JAL,

Thank you for the correction, I wasn't sure like I said, but I don't know how I got that in my mind. Must have been somewhere else with super fast greens. My apologies to Bogey and the rest on this thread.

[peter_p]

There are a whole bunch of them at Banff. The firmer the green, the more they come into play. A nastie one at 16 on TOC.

[A_Clay_Man]

Ed, I'm the obtuse one. I don't think I was contradicting myself. I just picked up on a semantical issue with Mike's original posit. Calling a bunker strategic vs. the strategy the golfer uses to avoid said bunker. Perhaps it was strategically placed by the architect (or some ignoramous)? But if a bunker were strategic, I would probably aim for it. Wouldn't you?

Mike, Interesting. Thanks for the thought provoking reply re angc's 5th.

As Peter mentioned, Banff is repleat with back bunkers. the majority of which could be classified as eye candy. As matter of fact, Ran even turned to me on one of the holes and said "Whats with all the raised back bunkers? If Fazio did them, they'd be ridiculed as eye candy, Thompson does them and they are genius?" It was after that point, and seeing early pictures of Jasper Pk. That I wondered about Dr. Allister's affect on Thompson re these back bunkers.

[Mark_Fine]

Here is a photo of a back bunker on #3 at Fenway (Tillinghast) that I took this morning.  You can see that this bunker might save the golfer from a worse fate of OB.



Architects like Ross very very rarely used bunkers beyond the green.  As far as Ross was concerned, the hole ended at the back edge of the green and if you missed long you were in trouble.  Flynn used some behind greens but not many.  The ones that Wayne mentions were at courses where he worked with Wilson.  I'm trying to think of another good bunker Flynn did behind a green and I'm having trouble coming up with one.  If I do I'll mention it.  Wayne can you think of a few?  #15 at Cherry Hills when restored will have some sand beyond the green on the right side so that might count.  

Tillinghast was not shy to use back bunkers and Maxwell did a few good ones as well.  If I remember correctly, there is a great one behind the green on #2 at Prairie Dunes.  

[Joe Hancock]

Isn't there a pretty cool bunker behind #8 @ Merion? I'll have to go check some of my pictures....if I remember correctly it's really narrow and nasty.

Joe

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
I don't believe there is one behind #8 at Merion.  Pine Valley has some back bunkers including hole #8.  
Mark

[Steve Sayers]

Mark:

LuLu (Ross) has several greens with back bunkers.  Many of these did not have sand prior to the recent restoration.

Also, AWT reported to the PGA on September 19, 1935 after a visit to LuLu “Both men favored my suggestion immediately as well as several others at greens where misplaced pits, immediately back of the greens trapped long, accurate shots.”

Steve

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

There used to be a bunker behind the 8th at Merion East but that was abandoned before the 1930 Amateur.

There were a fair amount of them on other Flynn courses.  I'm too tired to remember them right now but I will post a list sometime tomorrow.

Of course the 1st at Merion was designed and built by Flynn 4 years after Wilson died and none of the bunkers I mentioned previously behind greens were there existed when Merion first opened.  For the 1916 Amateur there were bunkers behind 4,7,8,and 9 greens.  The bunkers behind 4 and 9 still exist.  8 was a Flynn green moved right along the line of play from the original green between 1912 and 1916.

[Joe Hancock]

Wayne,

Isn't #8 Merion right before you come back across the road? I could swear there's bunkering from the right and moving around to the back of the green. I could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time today.

Joe

[Mark_Fine]

Steve,
Interesting!  I remember Michael Fay once telling me that he had "reviewed the original drawings for over 150 Ross courses and can count on two hands the number of rear bunkers that appear."

There are always exceptions and when you find such an occurance, you need to see if it was original.  

I was just at Plainfield and I believe there might have been one back bunker.  I am not sure if it was original.  Sometimes rear bunkers are added because the recovery from being long is near impossible and a bunker makes it somewhat playable.  I know the first thing I said to my three playing partners at Plainfield was "don't miss any of these greens long."  On a good Donald Ross course, that is usually death.  Some of them didn't listen and paid the price      

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I'm sure Flynn did some.  I just can't think of them right now either.  Are there any at The Cascades?  I can't remember any but it has been a long time since I have played down there.  

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