[T_MacWood]

I don't believe Crump was an imprudent man....yes, when he engaged Colt, I believe he expected him to return. Colt did so when he was involved with other N. American projects in 1911/12.

Those would be the photos taken by the famous NY photographer Harold Strohmeyer...personal photographer of Theodore Roosevelt.

Was it Alan or Hugh Wilson...did he remember Colt?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You answered my question with about Colt's pay with, "Colt, MacKenzie and Alison's scale of professional charges and conditions of agreement...which follow the scale created by Royal Institute of British Architects. Why?"

The reason I asked this is because at that time, teens and twenties, American architects were negotiating their pay on a per course basis.

For example, in the early twenties, just a short time after finishing Baltusrol and being at the height of his fame, and therefor ability to demand commission for work, Tillinghast's contract for doing two courses at Baltimore's Five Farms (the second course was cancelled later) states this:

“My minimum fee for eighteen holes is Three thousand dollars. I see nothing to warrant any addition to this and consequently I will agree to make detailed plans for thirty-six holes… acting in a general advisory capacity until both courses are ready for play, visiting the grounds from time to time as may be necessary to produce courses which will be satisfactory to you and myself, for six thousand dollars and expenses incidental to travel and lodging…”

This is after stating that, "While it is difficult to estimate accurately the probable cost of construction, I am of the opinion that it will not exceed one hundred thousand dollars each…”    

At $3,000 per course, and with each one estimated at approximately $100,000, Tilly was looking at getting paid at the rate of 3% of the project value. Often he was getting far less than this, and he was among the most prolific of designers.

I am not personally aware of the facts of what PV cost and who got paid what, but I felt that the percentages didn't make sense based upon what I know about Tillinghast. I would think that Crump, as a businessman of the day, would be well aware of what the average architectural fees were in his day.

I may be assuming incorrectly on this, and if so, would like to get the general facts & those specific to Pine Valley correct.

Thanks

[TEPaul]

"I don't believe Crump was an imprudent man....yes, when he engaged Colt, I believe he expected him to return."

I'm not sure what you think prudence has to do with it. From reports coming out of practically the entire world of architectue during the five year construction period during his life that Crump worked on that course almost daily it seems things were coming along just fine without Colt needing to return or being asked to. If Crump needed his help I'm fairly certain Crump was capable of writing him and asking any question that need be asked.

But, in my opinion, that wouldn't have been likely! I guess you're not that familiar with the "remembrances" of Carr and Smith on which the 1921 Committee tried to base their decision-making. It seems that Crump had some pretty elaborate plans to change a couple of the five or so holes I believe really were Colt's sole conceptions. And there certainly is at least one notable thing that shows up on the topos and from quotes from those close to Crump where he definitely over-ruled Colt.

"Was it Alan or Hugh Wilson...did he remember Colt?"

I believe it was Hugh. It wasn't a letter from Colt I have--it's a letter from Wilson to Piper or Oakley mentioning the letter from Colt.

[TEPaul]

"I may be assuming incorrectly on this, and if so, would like to get the general facts & those specific to Pine Valley correct."

Phil:

As far as that $10,000 fee from Colt you should know according to Jim Finegan who wrote the latest history book on PVGC that that fee was first heard of in the 1950s (40 years after the fact) from Crump's old friend Joe Bole (the man he went to Europe with in 1910 to study architecture, among other things). There is no actual accounting at PVGC or from Crump's side on a $10,000 design fee to Colt. As far as I can tell no one who knows a lot about Colt has ever heard of that either. I guess he paid him something but there certainly were a number of other professional architects around who collaborated at PVGC and didn't get paid. These would include Travis, Tillinghast, Toomey and Flynn and Perry Maxwell! Of course there were the usual well-known amateur architects contributing too such as Thomas, Fownes and possibly even Macdonald.

[T_MacWood]

Phil
Fowler charged 6% at LACC as well. MacKenzie going rate was 10%!

Hermitage was constructed for a total cost of $4,000, Tilly's fee was $1000 or a whopping 25%.

TE
"I'm not sure what you think prudence has to do with it. From reports coming out of practically the entire world of architectue during the five year construction period during his life that Crump worked on that course almost daily it seems things were coming along just fine without Colt needing to return or being asked to. If Crump needed his help I'm fairly certain Crump was capable of writing him and asking any question that need be asked."

I agree.

I know Alan Wilson was a member of PV, was Hugh Wilson?

Are you referring to a comment over the 2nd hole?

[TEPaul]

"I know Alan Wilson was a member of PV, was Hugh Wilson?"

Hugh Wilson was a green chairman there!

"Are you referring to a comment over the 2nd hole?"

Tom, a whole lot more than that. Instead of just asking me endless questions about PVGC why don't you study those topos and all the other available material by just trying to get to PVGC at some point and study the course and it's creation? Without doing that some day you're never really going to figure this stuff out.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You wrote, "Hermitage was constructed for a total cost of $4,000, Tilly's fee was $1000 or a whopping 25%."

That really proves the point I was driving at. Each course design was a separate negotiation and not based upon a set percentage.

By the way, could you send me the information & sources for the Hermitage (Belmont Park) Tillinghast info? I am certain that
the Tillinghast association would enjoy putting it into their archives. They are actively seeking any info on any of his courses so that a true archive that can be made available to researchers interested in Tilly will have a place to go.

Are you aware of any other Tillinghast design contracts that work out to these type of percentages.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Thanks. I'll take that under advisement.  

"Are you aware of any other Tillinghast design contracts that work out to these type of percentages."

Phil
No not really, but weren't we talking about Colt and PV?

The Hermitage source is their club history and it does not mention a percentage, that was my calculation. I understand your point.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

As a sales tool it seems many of the earlier architects such as Mackenzie and Hunter and others spoke of the cost efficiencies of hiring a professional architect. Basically their message was a club would save money with a professional architect by simply avoiding costly mistakes.

Some of them even plied a theme they referred to as "finality" which meant the courses designed and built by a professional architect were much less likely to be changed later by a club (thereby ultimately saving money!). Max Behr ultimately referred to this as "permanent architecture?

"Founders of clubs are often deterred from calling a first class architect because they think he may be expensive. An architect's fee is often less than a hundreth part of the total capital expenditure, and surely this is a small sum to pay for the assurance of perpetual prosperity."
Alister Mackenzie
"The Spirit of St Andrews"

[TEPaul]

Phil;

PVGC under the direction of George Crump was probably somewhat of a different case and perhaps not easily or appropriately compared to the design and construction of other courses.

First of all, the extent of architectural collaboration at PVGC was probably never remotely matched on another course in the history of golf. Secondly, although parts of the course were opened sequentially, there's no question at all that Crump was very much taking his time completing the course. A number of holes were not completed almost 8 years after the construction began and it's undeniable that Crump had sometimes rather elaborate plans to go back and change a number of holes that had been opened for play. Hence his well-known response when asked when he might finally complete the course---eg "NEVER!" (one of the true ironies of the #1 course in the world is there is (and was for quite some time) a lot about it still today that Crump himself considered to be "temporary"!!).

Why was that (the unique extent of architectural collaboratin)? Probably a lot of it had to do with a unique aspect of the original "Philadelphia School of architecture", at least how it centered around the creation of PVGC. Most of those Philly School" architects were amateur architects anyway (Crump, Wilson, Thomas, Fownes) who never took a dime for anything they did in architecture.

A good deal of this perhaps had to do with questions of amateur status around the time of PVGC's creation---a problem that eventually effected Tillinghast and Travis.

One should realize that the so-called professional architects in and around that time---eg Tillinghast, Travis, Toomey, Flynn, or even later Perry Maxwell who did architectural work there later apparently were not paid by Crump or later PVGC. Basically they appear to have been Crump's friends and did it for that reason or were simply made members as were Toomey, Flynn and Perry Maxwell!

Did PVGC ever pay an architect? Perhaps. We've heard of this payment to Colt in 1913 although the amount of it and the source of the information of it certainly has been questioned. Did they pay Alison for his work in 1921? Perhaps. The estimated cost of doing his recommendations that were approved by the 1921 Advisory Committee was $6,500 to which a $1,000 fee would be added for Alison that included his 'superinetendency'. The matter went to the board for approval but it doesn't appear that Alison did that 'superintendency'---it appeared it was done by William Flynn, Merion (the Wilson), "in-house" with Jim Govan (the pro, superintendent and Crump's constant on-site foreman and "shot tester") perhaps with the assistance of member George Thomas who apparently returned from the West Coast and some of the recommendations or alterations were later carried out by Perry Maxwell who stated he would not charge the club for any architectural work he did there (he was a member).

(It even appears that to this day that ''no-fee" architectural collaboration continues at PVGC. Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Ben Crenshaw, at least, belong to the club (and I've certainly seen Pete Dye there socially) and it appears no professional architectural fees have ever been asked or charged by any of them. Matter of fact, Tom Fazio is on the board of directors of PVGC!)

[TEPaul]

One of the most obvious questions involving all this massive architectural collaboration at PVGC involving Crump, Tillinghast, Travis, perhaps MacDonald, Flynn (Toomey), Thomas, Fownes, Wilson, and perhaps others is why if all that talent was around did Crump hire (presumably to pay) Colt in 1913 and why did the club hire (presumably to pay) Alison in 1921, three years after Crump died?

I think the answer to that question can best be seen by simply stripping everything we know today about all those architects (excluding Colt and Alison) that came after the times we're looking at (1913 and 1921) and put the way they were all looked at by others and even amongst themselves in the complete context of only those two times (Colt in 1913 and Alison in 1921) and definitely not our own, or at any time AFTER those two times.

If looked at in that context it obviously made sense to Crump to hire Colt in 1913 and for the 1921 Advisory Committee to hire Alison almost three years after Crump's death (1921). Were Tillinghast, Thomas, Fownes, Wilson, Flynn the famous architects in 1913 they are today?  Of course not. Were they the famous architects in 1921 they’d later become? No! Did that mean all of them didn’t have talent in 1913 or 1921? No!

Does the fact that Crump hired Colt in 1913 in any way preclude or minimize what Crump himself did on that course either before Colt arrived or most particularly in the 4-5 years after Colt left? Of course not---the record is pretty clear and getting clearer everyday on that score. And that, to me is the real fascination and the really interesting story behind the creation of PVGC. Because Crump was a novice in 1913 did that mean he didn’t have real talent? No! Does the fact that he managed to do all that he did at PVGC in those 5-6 years he was there almost constantly explain why he was so respected and perhaps glorified when he died suddenly? It sure does to me---and that’s most of the fascination of PVGC and Crump, in my opinion---and I believe the club and numerous others everywhere feel the same way. Should any of that be seen as in some way minimizing Colt or Alison’s part? Not to me.

Obviously, in 1912 and 1913 Crump was a rank amateur, a novice in golf architecture with no reputation for it at all. He’d done nothing before other than go to Europe obviously to study architectural principles. Did he get that idea from Macdonald? I’ve never seen anything to that effect other than he was obviously aware of NGLA and he knew Macdonald at the very least from the Lesley Cups. Did Hugh Wilson influence him to go to Europe to study? I doubt that as they went almost at the same time, certainly not together (had they been close friends that might’ve seemed a natural) and it doesn’t look to me like Hugh Wilson and George Crump were all that close friends!

But we know now pretty clearly what Crump did at PVGC before Colt ever arrived, and I think we’re getting very close to understanding what he was doing with that course in the 4-5 years after Colt left----and one thing he most certainly was NOT doing is simply telling his crews to construct that golf course specifically to Colt’s topo routing or hole by hole booklet. If that’s what he was doing or some on here think he was doing then that course most definitely would’ve been opened and ready to play in about a year or a little more and in effect Crump’s job would’ve been done and he would’ve probably just been happy to play it. But that didn’t remotely happen.

I say this as a way of explaining that the club, PV, and it’s members and Crump’s friends did not remotely try to minimize Colt or Alison in what they did there. Those people were simply recognizing what Crump had done. (the minimizing of what Colt and Alison did came years later in the history books basically only as a result of some research mistakes—and certainly one significant one being completely innocent). I’ve said many times to Paul Turner and Tom MacWood that the club and its members have always had real respect for Harry Colt, even in many cases (members) feeling he was responsible for more there than he actually was. In a word and generally, they feel Colt was considered one of the very best in the world and admire him for that and are in fact proud he had to do with PVGC at all. Of course Paul Turner, many times on here has said that I must be nuts to think that---despite the fact I know probably a hundred or more members of that club that feel that way.

I wish I could say the same for Hugh Alison. Apparently what he did for the club in 1921 and what is today on the course because of him is perhaps the least known significant thing about the course compared to what Crump/Colt/Tillinghast/Flynn (Thomas)/Wilson/Govan/Maxwell/Fazio did there.

But it seems to me that some such as Turner and MacWood seem to think that Crump didn’t do various things at PVGC either before Colt got there, perhaps while he was there and most definitely after he left simply because he couldn’t have! It seems to be as if they think he in fact almost had to rely on Colt. I don’t think so. I think what he did both before, probably during and certainly after Colt, is the single reason why Crump himself became so respected by all who knew of him. Would the course be the same as it is today without Colt or Alison (or Flynn (Thomas), Wilson, Fownes, Tillinghast, Travis, Macdonald, Maxwell, Fazio et al)? Of course not. But the point is without Crump the course would probably be almost nothing like it is today. And that’s the real point, in my opinion, of PVGC and its interesting and long-term creation!

[T_MacWood]

TE
How famous was Colt in the United States in 1913? If Crump needed a famous name why not invite Macdonald to lend his name to the project a la Merion. Macdonald was a much bigger name in the States, and the NGLA was the premier course in the country.

Why did Crump need a big name? I haven't seen any evidence PV was having difficulty attracting members, just the opposite.

Alison wasn't exactly a house hold name in 1921 either. He had been a club secretary before WWI. It appears to me the reason they hired Alison was the same reason they did just about every thing after Crump's death...there was great effort to follow his wishes, and one can presume they believed bringing back Colt & Co. would have been Crump's wish.

[wsmorrison]

"If Crump needed a famous name why not invite Macdonald to lend his name to the project a la Merion."

I don't agree with your premise that Merion wanted Macdonald to lend his name to the new course at Merion.  What makes you think this is true?  Wilson judiciously sought his advice but do you really think they sought to have his name associated with the project?

Is it because Wilson spoke of the valuable advice he got at Macdonald's bungalow at NGLA before heading overseas?  How about Macdonald's visit to see how things were coming along at Merion where he agreed with the work being done?  

Or are you once again concluding that Macdonald and Whigham were brought in to lend their names and expertise to the new course because they were incapable of doing it on their own and that they needed a famous name?

I think it is absurd to think that Merion needed a famous name.  What they needed was sound advise, not a name.  Likewise, I don't think Crump needed a name, he wished for some advise.

The Merion membership was growing at an enormous pace requiring a new course and in fact a second one immediately after.  In your mind, was Macdonald's name, that was or was not commonly associated with the project, responsible for this?   I don't think the membership knew of or cared about Macdonald but rather the finished project.

In what way do you think architects were regarded by memberships in this time period in America or the UK for that matter?  My assumption would be that it mattered not at all.  These architects were not famous.  They may be today, but I would guess that they were not in their day outside a very small circle of people.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Where did I say Crump or PVGC NEEDED a big name? Where do you get this stuff. All I said is in my opinion the members I know at Pine Valley who know about Colt consider that he was probably one of the very best professional architects in the world at that time. Those who know the modus operandi of the early Philly amateur architects, particularly Crump and Wilson know they went to Europe to study architecture and its principles in Scotland and particularly the English Heathlands. Where was Colt from? The Heathlands. They both obviously saw the Heathland courses including his.

I don't think we need to make too much out of all this. Apparently some around the Delaware Valley (Seaview, Merion East and PVGC perhaps even Sunnybrook heard Colt was in Canada or was going to be there and probably just got him down here because of that). When architects such as Maxwell, or RTJ or even Fazio were around here at various times various clubs found out about it and called on them if they felt they needed something or some advice. That's probably just the way it went at PVGC in 1913 too, and perhaps with Alison in 1921.

I just noticed in one of the "agronomy letters" that in Nov or Dec of 1920 Hugh Wilson was at PVGC with Alison. Alison wanted to know about various agronomy issues from Piper and Oakley and arranged to go down to Washington and meet with them and with Flynn. Shortly thereafter Alison even proposed that he form a partnership with Flynn.

There was a lot of collaboration going on in those days, particularly in Philadelphia.

Macdonald? I cant see that Crump exactly took to Macdonald. It may've been Macdonald who coigned the term "Crump's Folly" for PVGC. He came down to look at it early and said his famous; "It could be a great golf course if Crump could figure out how to get grass to grown there" (pretty much straight sand). I guess Macdonald knew whereof he spoke (NGLA). It's quite certain that Crump must not have listened to him (if Macdonald even mentioned the agronomic similarity to NGLA) as Pine Valley had the same kind of massive "growing medium" and "binding" and "water retention" problems ten years after Macdonald and NGLA went through all that---problems that the Wilsons, Flynn and Govan fixed in 1919-1920-1921.

You said;

"appears to me the reason they hired Alison was the same reason they did just about every thing after Crump's death...there was great effort to follow his wishes, and one can presume they believed bringing back Colt & Co. would have been Crump's wish."

There's no question whatsoever they were trying to follow Crump's wishes---everything following his death and certainly the formation and work of the so-called "1921 Advisory Committee" highlights and mentions that fact. But as far as hiring Alison because they understood that Crump wished Colt to return, there's no evidence I know of about that with one possible exception. I may take a look at the archives shortly but there is this from the recent Finegan PVGC history book (the one you and Paul have mentioned attempts to minimize Colt for not mentioning his part in PVGC more) that may shed some light on something within the archives of PVGC to that effect; Finegan said;

"The other three members of the committee (other than Fownes) were Simon Carr, Joe Bole, of Cleveland, and non-member Hugh Alison, representing Harry Colt and the firm of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison".

I have no idea if Finegan just happened to say it that way or if there's something within the PVGC archives he was almost quoting from to that effect.

But all of this, in my opinion, only goes to prove that PVGC the club, it's members, and Crump's friends and others in and around Philadelphia who knew and know PVGC and admire and admired Crump so much never had one damn thing against Colt or Alison in the manner of trying to minimize Colt (or Alision) which you and Paul Turner have been vociferously saying they all did for about the last year or two. So much so that you stated or implied to me that the club, members and his friends attempted to glorify Crump at Colt's expense because he shot himself! While apparently simultaneously creating some fictitious story that he died of a tooth abscess.

Maybe now you two are beginning to see the light---and hopefully the truth of the way things happened in and arcound PVGC during Crump's life and following it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Tom MacWood,

If Colt was so intricately involved in the early years of PV why would PV move away from him and his imput after Crump's death ?

Common sense would seem dictate that the club would hire Colt, not Allison, or anybody else.

Is there any documentation relating to the club's dilema, the architect's void, and their ultimate selection of Allison rather then Colt ?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I think it's about time we both stop listening to and certainly responding to some of these outlandish presumptions, assumptions or conclusions that Tom MacWood seems to come to about Crump, Wilson, PVGC, Merion East and basically the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" and the Philadelphia golf region generally.

I had to have to say it again but he's never even been here, never laid eyes on either of these golf courses and probably knows no one in either of them and probably never has. Why does a guy like this think he can research and come to any accurate conclusions if he hasn't at least been here to these places? No wonder his musings are wrong, ridiculous and certainly should stop!

[TEPaul]

"If Colt was so intricately involved in the early years of PV why would PV move away from him and his imput after Crump's death?"

Pat:

There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that PV or Crump was intricately involved with Colt. Colt spent perhaps a week at least, perhaps a little more with Crump at PVGC in June 1913. Previous to that the two may never have met and they surely never met again. It does not appear from anything that's in or around PV in archives or anything else that Crump sought his advice again after he departed for good in June 1913. Anybody who knows anything at all about the creation of PVGC knows that Crump very much did his own thing every day architecturally and otherwise on that golf course from June 1913 until the day he died suddenly on Jan 24, 1918. He certainly did invite and have numerous others of architectural experience in and around PV in those ensuing years. Crump according to all reports of those who knew him was a very generous, outgoing, and friendly man who sought and listened to all kinds of things from all kinds of people even if it was completely obvious he didn't always accept their advice. This is clearly why all those that knew him at PVGC have called him the ultimate editor of all that went on down there, and definitely with the golf course. And there's no question whatsoever that George Crump very definitely had his own unique ideas about how that course should be. He never kept any records of his own but the so-called "remembrances" of Smith and Carr are replete with what they knew he wanted to do. That's the primary reason they were written! Those two guys were his best friends and the ones who spent the most time with him out there other than Jim Govan, his professional, foreman and constant "shot-tester" for those 3-4 years before he died when they spent most every day constructing and designing that golf course.

"Common sense would seem dictate that the club would hire Colt, not Allison, or anybody else."

It's pretty clear to me that Crump was in no way wedded to Colt or ever expected him to return to PVGC.

"Is there any documentation relating to the club's dilema, the architect's void, and their ultimate selection of Allison rather then Colt?"

Yes, and I have most all of it and have for about four years. Whatever 'architect's void" (as you say) that golf club felt following Crump's sudden death was the void of no longer having George Crump!! If anyone on here or anywhere else tries to deny that, I can very much guarantee you they know very little about the early days of PVGC!.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne:

I think it's about time we both stop listening to and certainly responding to some of these outlandish presumptions, assumptions or conclusions that Tom MacWood seems to come to about Crump, Wilson, PVGC, Merion East and basically the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" and the Philadelphia golf region generally."

I am in complete agreement.  It takes a lot of time and effort to research this material and seemingly even longer to try and convince Tom MacWood of anything.  My conclusion is that it is a waste of time.  I post now and then in response to Tom MacWood's conclusions, especially when they seem so erroneous.  But I am not trying to convince him of anything so much as hoping that just because he comes up with some conclusion or "proof" that it is not taken for granted by others that it is true.  

I've been writing quite a bit lately and get far more enjoyment out of seeing that work progress than I ever would making headway convincing a certain persimmon head in Ohio    Hint. Hint  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I agree with you that Macdonald was not brought to Merion to lend his famous name. Merion was an established club. Macdonald was sought for advice because of his expertise.

My point was if Crump was simply looking for a big name to be associated with PV (which I do not believe was the case), Macdonald was more famous than Colt in America.

TE
Historically PV's position on Colt has been he should be credited for the 5th hole. IMO that is minimizing his role.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Alison was Colt's partner and representative in America in the 1920's. The last trip Colt made outside Europe was in 1913. If you were in America and wanted a Colt design, you got Alison.

I assume the folks at PV were quite comfortable with Alison, he had come over 1903 with the Oxford & Cambridge Society and had competed with a number of Philadelphia golfers including Tilly and WP Smith.

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

Why do you think Alison wanted Flynn to go into business with him in 1921?  As of 1921, Flynn's portfolio included Kilcare in VT, his continuing work at Merion, agronomics and construction at Pine Valley, Harrisburg, Doylestown, Eagles Mere, Washington GCC, Lancaster, construction of Westchester-Biltmore, Pocono Manor and Town and Country.  Under what structure do you think that relationship might have been proposed?  Did Alison use an engineer in his work in the US?  If not, do you think Toomey would have been an integral part of Alison's desire to work with Flynn?  Toomey and Flynn were just beginning to work together in 1921.  

[TEPaul]

"TE
Historically PV's position on Colt has been he should be credited for the 5th hole. IMO that is minimizing his role."

Tom:

I think I've told you this on here a number of times now but I'll tell you again. Historically, that's not really the case. That story about Colt recommending that #5's green be taken all the way up to where it is now is a famous story and undoubtedly very true.

Having just been able to really analyze that first stick routing the other day due to finally being able to see the details of the hole numbers and such it is pretty obvious to me why that Colt story on #5 is so famous.

It looks like that recommendation set into motion a series of routing decisions and events that very likely took place out there when Colt and Crump were together for that week or two in 1913. And it looks like that one decision on #5 is the thing that probably set it all off.

Basically it stopped Crump from trying to go over the ridge towards #10 green for his 6th hole or obviously in another Crump iteration for #6 (shown to Tillinghast and written about by Tillinghast before Colt arrived) of going over the other ridge on present #6 from way below it (where Crump had a short par 3 5th) to a par 5 green site at the present #6 green(#8 on Crump's stick routing).

The point of all this is neither Warner Shelly nor Jim Finegan who wrote the two PVGC history books in the last 20 or so years understood how that all played out in a routing and design sense. The reason they didn't understand that is at that point no one understood the red and blue lines on the topo in the front room and obviously no one tried to compare the topo in the superintendent's office that's very likely Crump before Colt arrived. Plus, obviously Finegan made an innocent but major research mistake of assuming the date on the topo in the front room was the date Crump finished the routing. That date was before Colt ever arrived at PVGC and it happened to be the surveyor's date!!

So they simply didn't know then the things we know now. So those two history books are the first time Colt's part in PVGC began to be minimized by PV.

Previous to that most members who concerned themselves with this kind of thing believed that Colt at least routed the whole course or even routed and designed it and that Crump spent the next 4-5 years building the course to those specs.

The reason most thought that (before the two history books) is that most were aware of Colt's hole by hole design booklet sitting in the archives but before the two history books no one had ever really looked carefully at that hole by hole design booklet to see if the particulars of it looked that much like the particulars of the way the course was actually built.

When Shelley and Finegan finally analyzed that booklet carefully they found it didn't look that much like the particulars of the holes on the course and that's what they both said---at very separated times and independently. Shelley lived at PVGC for decades and Finegan has been a member for decades and both know or knew that course like the back of their hand. So for them to say the details of the holes don't look all that much like the details of the course I tend to believe them (I think they both said there were more differences than similarities).

There's no real reason for you to call what they said into question, most particularly, and again, because you've never even laid eyes on that golf course. You simply don't know it as they do (did in the case of Shelly) and to try to pretend you do somehow simply because you think your such a great golf architecture researcher really just doesn't cut it! That's what I'd like those on here, including yourself, to fully understand! And I really do wish you would and could begin to understand that without automatically taking umbrage towards me or anyone else! To truly understand what's been talked about here that's completely necessary, in my opinion---that you really do become familiar with the details of the golf course. Frankly just looking at it once or twice or thrice would probably not do---you have to become as familiar with the details of it on the ground as they were--or I am now.

Why do I know that so many members felt Colt either routed or designed that course and Crump spent 4-5 years building it to those routing and design specs? Because over the years I've probably gotten to know a 100 or more members of PVGC and that's what they thought (before those two history books).

Lastly, none of them that I ever met had the slightest problem or concern with that. They all seemed quite proud of the architectural name of Harry Colt! But all of them were aware that Crump spent practically every day on that course for almost six years. What they never understood, in my opinion, is the details of what Crump did and Colt didn't do!

Now we do understand those things and hopefully in the not too distant future the club will too as well as its members that concern themselves with this kind of architectural thing!

Of course there're others like John Ott who understood Crump did more but he's lived there for over 30 years and is extremely interested in the details of the architecuture and he just knew more than most all of them. But he never knew as much as we do now. This he has told me a number of times recently. Mayor Ott has no axe to grind against Colt--he's a fair and objective man. Just ask anyone who knows him. Ask Tommy Nacarrato.

So I really do wish you'd try to learn something here instead of just continually claiming;

'IMO PVGC has historically minimized Colt's role'.

Are you ever going to listen to the things some of us have to say and begin to believe them or are you always just going to think and imply you know more or something that's going to expose some big dark secret why PVGC tried to minimize Colt?

[TEPaul]

Hugh Wilson, who may've gone into an architectural partnership with Flynn himself had he not been bothered by illness described Alison to Piper and Oakley (in a written introduction in a letter) as a very attractive man. However, (in another letter) he said he really didn't think an architectural partnership between Flynn and Alison would be particularly advantageous for Flynn. In so many words, he basically said he didn't think Flynn needed Alison at that point.

There's no question, though, and it seems hard to stress enough on here, just how heavily Wilson (and to a large degree Flynn and Toomey too) were into golf agronomics and its experimentations---perhaps far more than archtiecture.

Wilson believed Flynn was the best actual practioner there was on that score---eg on the ground practical golf agronmics. Wilson even cracked (in another letter) after Colt had written him regarding agronomic information dissemination, something to the effect;

"I guess they realize they need to come to us now."

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
When you say Alison asked Flynn to go into business with him, I interpret that as establishing a business relationship with a expert in construction. Similar to MacKenzie and Wendell Miller or Tillinghast and Peter Lees or Colt and William Murray or Alison and George Penglase. I would think one of the first moves a foreign architect would make would be to secure a competent constructor, and obviously Flynn fit that bill. I don't know about Toomey.

TE
You don't have to go over the chain of events, I'm aware of how it developed. I actually believe Shelley gave more credit to Colt than Finegan did. To his credit, WS also understood the map hanging at PV was a Crump and Colt creation.

[Jeff_Mingay]

There's no question, though, and it seems hard to stress enough on here, just how heavily Wilson (and to a large degree Flynn and Toomey too) were into golf agronomics and its experimentations---perhaps far more than archtiecture.

Wilson believed Flynn was the best actual practioner there was on that score---eg on the ground practical golf agronmics. Wilson even cracked (in another letter) after Colt had written him regarding agronomic information dissemination, something to the effect;

"I guess they realize they need to come to us now."

Have to say, Tom: that's a very interesting quote from Wilson - "I guess they relaize they need to come to us now."

Very interesting.

I hope a lot of the Wilson stuff (ie. those letters to and from Piper and Oakley) are covered in your Flynn book.

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