[Lloyd_Cole]

In the late 1990s I played the Old Course on 2 conscutive days. Not playing particalarly well, but not stinking, but not a single break.. everytime the caddie said - that'll be right - it was short or through the back. 34 holes, no birdies. 37th hole I fade 3 wood and fluke a 4 iron to about 12 feet road side of the cup which is left centre. Caddie says - just outside the left lip. I hit it - just outside the left lip, and no movement from the line is perceived. The ball comes to rest about 12 inches beyond the hole, slightly to the left. 'Och, you hit it a bit hard' is what he said.

[Lloyd_Cole]

My one and only visit to Bandon was much anticipated. I had been on vacation (holiday) with family and the clubs were waiting.. first hole on Bandon Dunes I hit a week 3 wood and a thin 7 iron, which, one of my playing partners' caddy deems, will be very close to the hole.  As we approach we can see no ball. He is adamant, it must be in the hole. He was correct.

[Lou_Duran]

BARRY (blue jeans), Goodale (putting), Schmidt (blue vest), Moriarty


BARRY holding flag; Childs, Cirba, Duran (putting), Huckaby

The "incident" took place in 2002 while playing with Moriarty, Goodale, and Schmidt.  I didn't take Barry's admonition badly.  It was his course, I was an outsider, and he was in charge.  The man sure can read those greens.  As I recall, he is a Viet Nam vet who had been subjected to considerable ill treatment both abroad and at home, thus at least having a reasoanble excuse for his less than pleasing personality.

When I was able to return a year later, I specifically asked for Barry, though his value this time around was much less as the greens had been deep-tined a day or two before.  Huck's mix up on the incident is likely due to me telling the story when I introduced Barry to our group (Cirba, Childs, Huck, and Hendren, officiating).  Barry did not remember, but he didn't deny it either.

[ForkaB]

Shivas

You and I shared that caddy, and I fully agree.  Frist class.  His name was Norty.

[Dan Kelly]

ONE thing a good caddie can do is point out to you the putts that don't do what "obvious" tells you that they do or when teh degree of a break is "local knowlwdge".  This is especially prevalent on very hilly courses.

No doubt about it!

My point was (sorry I didn't express it; I was "busy"):

Isn't visual deception one of the architectural achievements we generally admire here? (That Mackenzie Boer War stuff and all.)

So: Doesn't having a caddie tell you where to hit the ball diminish, in some ineffable (beautiful word) way, (1) the joy of seeing through the architect's deceptions, or, equally, (2) the appreciation of the craftsmanship that caused you to be fooled?



 

[A_Clay_Man]

Dave, I do believe that your #1 rule is not a requisite for this new resort caddying. Maybe at the old clubs where you probably caddied, but not since the 80's boom.

In a indeal situation, there is discussion ahead of time, as to what is to be expected, from both parties. Mostly, the typical resort guest is not all that fussy, but in the case of a guy who refuses to let me change-out his louis vaton, gold plated dinasour bag, complete with his dive weights... he's ignoring my first piece of advice, and as an independant contractor I can refuse the loop and probably should. Ya see Dave, you can't get it all the way you see it. It has to be a give and take. The caddies do NOT set the bag rate, they do NOT set the dress code, they do NOT get certain luxuries (like health insurance) typical of most standard employment. They do get other luxuries, but that is more about what you take out of the experiences from meeting people from all over the world.

Everyone is different Dave. Both sides of the aisle. It's adapting to the multiple types, that represents quality caddying, IMO in this resort set-up. Not, being by the golfers side, just in case. Knowing the course, and it's tendancies was what got me off, dealing with egos came relatively easy for me, so I never had a problem. It was often most interesting to see how different types treated people differently.

I remeber one loop (a single) who was purported to be a very good golfer. On hearing that, I was a bit leary about taking the job, but took the gig anyway, On the very first hole at Spanish Bay, after his drive, he wants to know how far it is to that bunker. In my mind (and under my breath) I'm thinking 'why the f*&k do you wanna know that?' I respond thusly, " play a 160 shot directly at that bunker". Telling the guy that it was 186 yards to that bunker is useless information and possibly detrimental information. Stating the positives, avoiding the negatives was always a key. I.e. "Don't hit it right" versus "left center" seems like a little thing, but in reality isn't

[Andy Hughes]

On hearing that, I was a bit leary about taking the job, but took the gig anyway, On the very first hole at Spanish Bay, after his drive, he wants to know how far it is to that bunker. In my mind (and under my breath) I'm thinking 'why the f*&k do you wanna know that?' I respond thusly, " play a 160 shot directly at that bunker". Telling the guy that it was 186 yards to that bunker is useless information and possibly detrimental information.

Adam, perhaps I am missing a big part of this story, but why would a question that seems pretty reasonable and appropriate generate such a visceral reaction from you?
Why wouldn't a good player want to know how far it is to a hazard up ahead?  Why wouldn't a caddy want to give his player the requested information?

[A_Clay_Man]

While Daves reaction is way over the top, and presumes many things, it lacks any semblence of reality. Life on the peninsula, or the people who make-up that constituency.
 I can defend my answer to his question. (I was being cut-off while writting and just hit post before I finished)

Andy, the subtleties of my response were such that the player did not question my answer. He just listened. I don't remember if I explained it to him, specifically at the time, but what I do know, is that guy had immediate respect for me, and we went about our round with optimal enjoyment. How do I know that? Well, usually they only invite you into the bar for drinks when they really enjoyed their time. We discussed many things, and one of them was useless information.

Which, David, the distance to that bunker is.

You seem to really have this bias towards the subserviant form of caddying. A 'Whatever the golfer wants' kind of approach. It is just not that limited, or limiting. It's a relationship that is quick to start, and end. There is no one I know of, in the service industry, that doesn't do exactly what the customer wants, or better put, the smart ones suggest a better route, if the customer isn't aware of it. i.e. Do you appreciate it when a barmaid tells you, that a beer, that is very simialr to the expensive one you just ordered, is available for a reduced rate? Don't you still make your own decision on which beer you are going to order? And when you order the reduced price beer don't you over tip her?

Sure, I'm going to tell that guy how far it is to that bunker if he asks again, and I will probably start telling him how far it is to every bunker, (actually I'd wait for an opportune moment and likely have the othe three golfers on the floor) but that's my decision. And I will live with it.

Take for instance higher levels of caddying. Tour Pros. Caddies do have control of their rates. Ask Vejay about Scotty.
 While there is a standard or spectrum of a standard, every deal, and person is different.

Dave, I will admit that there were, and probably still are, "jerks" everywhere, and many do caddy, and even some are on the peninsula.

There, are you happy?

 BUT, last time I checked the policies at Pebble Beach Resorts, Caddies are serviced upon request. Not mandatory. If you had a problem with a certain caddie, YOU should've taken the time to explain to someone in the shop, exactly what your beef was. If they refuse to clean up the corp, don't take one next time. Or, find a good one, and try to book him when you know you're coming back.

P.s.  Better yet, after a lousy one, stiff the s.o.b. and when he whines, look him in the eye and tell him exactly what you think of HIS services. Just make sure your clubs are out of his reach, first.

[Andy Hughes]

Andy, the subtleties of my response were such that the player did not question my answer. He just listened. I don't remember if I explained it to him, specifically at the time, but what I do know, is that guy had immediate respect for me, and we went about our round with optimal enjoyment. How do I know that? Well, usually they only invite you into the bar for drinks when they really enjoyed their time. We discussed many things, and one of them was useless information.

Adam, I do not doubt that the player had a wonderful time or that he as thrilled with you or your caddying. I was just stunned by what seemed like such a strong, negative reaction to a perfectly normal, expected question.  If everyone was happy and the day was great, cool.  But still..
On a  tangent, if the player is totally removed from all discussion and consideration of what's out there on each hole, if he is kept in the dark about how far it is to certain areas and what the options are, then he is not playing a strategic course in any way shape or form, is he?  It would seem the net effect is that he played just another non-strategic, option-less course that happens to have pretty views and charges a lot.  And he was happy with that?

[Rob_Waldron]

I was playing in the first group away at North Hills CC in a GAP match several years ago. I was assigned a caddie named Sam. I was surprised to have Sam on my bag since I knew he was one of the most experienced caddies at NHCC and the away teams normally get only the "D" caddies.

Sam explained that his members did not appreciate him and he preferred to caddie for the Away Team. On the first hole Sam gave me a great read on a 15' birdie putt. I sank the putt and won the hole.

The pin on the 3rd hole was perched back left. My tee shot on this par three was ten feet behind leaving me with a very confusing dowhiller for birdie. Sam, my partner and I all read the putt and agreed it would move about 6 inches.

Unfortunately Sam read 6 inches left and my partner and I  read 6 inches right. We switched our view to the opposite side of the hole and still disagreed on which way the putt would break.

I just could not see what Sam saw. After my partner reminded me of Sam's read on #1 and his 25 years of experience reading the green at North Hills, I actually decided to aim my putt to the opposite side of my personal read.

Needless to say, Sam was correct and I made the birdie. My partner and I were bound by Sam's opinions for the remainder of the round. I shot 73 that day and easily won my match.

I will never forget Sam!

[Tommy Williamsen]

My wife and I vacationed in Spain a few years ago and we wanted to play Dar Es Salaam in Rabat, Morocco.  The caddies we had spoke no English but tried to communicate somehow.  I wasn't playing too well and my wife was playing very poorly.  Finally about the fourth hole I hit a good shot, to which my wife exclaimed, "Good shot Tommy!"  The next hole the same thing happened.  I hit a good sot and both myt wife and now the caddie exclaimed, "Good shot Tommy."  Two holes later my wife holes a shot from off the green, to which my caddy remarked, "Good shot Tommy!"
To this day whenever anyone in my group hits a good shot, I still say "Good shot Tommy."

[Mike McGuire]

I was on a 3 shotter that runs next to an expressway. I pulled my 3 wood second and couldnt tell if it went over the chain link fence or not. I asked my caddie if it was OK and he replied "I thinks its out, I SAW BRAKE LIGHTS"

[Tommy Williamsen]

I try to always take Jimmy as my caddy at my club here in DC.  He is a good guy, can read the greens, and we have fun together.  One day I brought a friend of mine to play with me.  He is the dep't chair of the econ dep't at the Naval Academy.  Well my friend, Buzz, was hitting it everywhere.  Jimmy was up to his eyeballs in deep grass looking for Buzz's golf balls all day.  Finally on number 11 I hit one down the right side of the fairway just over a rise in the fairway..  Buzz hit his dead right, in fescue waist high.  When we get to our balls, ther are two almost side by side.  "Whose ball is that,"
Jimmy deadpans,  "It is Buzz's it hit a deer.  go ahead you can see the blood trail."  Needless to say it was one of Buzz's favorite rounds of golf he had ever played.

[Casey Wade]

I was at a conference in Africa and it got done early so I asked the person at the front counter about any golf courses.  He motioned a cab for me and told the guy some directions.  We drove deep into the jungle until we came to the course.  I went into the clubhouse and paid my fees and rented some clubs.  I met my caddy on the first tee and was a little stunned that he had my clubs on one shoulder and a rifle on the other.

The first hole was a par 4 pretty straight away with it being tree-lined and I piped one down the middle.  As I set up to hit my shot, a tiger came out of the trees and started charging at us.  My caddy calmy set my clubs down, aimed, and dropped the tiger with one shot!  I was definitely rattled but made par.

On the second hole a dog-leg left par 5, I was setting up for my third shot when a lion came out of the trees and was coming straight for us.  Once again my caddy put the clubs down, aimed, and took the lion down.  I hit my shot tight and made birdie!

The third hole was a par 3 about 200 yards over water.  I hit it to about 25 feet.  As I prepared to hit my putt, a crocodile came out of the water and started running at us.  My caddy stood still.  I said "Aren't you going to shoot him?"  And his reply was "You don't get a shot on this hole!"

Not true but I love the joke!

[Gary_Nelson]

Caddy story from Edgewood CC (Union Lake, Michigan).

First year caddies were called "mullets" for some reason unbenownst to me.  All the mullets were subject to hazing by the captain caddies, the worst of which was a dunk in the "mullet pond".  The mullet pond was a fenced off retention pond filled with mucky water. Jeff Zelinski was the only kid I knew who got thrown in the mullet pond.  He came out soaking wet and covered in mud.  His mom came back later in the day and screamed at the caddymaster (Scotty).  

I always wondered what ever happened to Jeff.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It had always been a dream to play in Scotland.  Fifteen years ago my dream became a reality.  One of the courses was, of course, Muirfield.  I set it up a year in advance for my wife and me.  I received a lettter in the mail stating that,
"Dogs and women were not alloed in the clubhouse."  Needless to say ai kept the letter quiet.
The day came for us to play and not wanting to appear to bourgiouse we arrived in dress clothes and asked for a place to change.  I was ushered into the spartan men's locker room, while my wife was led to a little shed.  Not a good start.
We each had a caddie.  Since Muirfield is a mens' club there were no laddies tees.  The caddy just decided a good place for my wife to tee it up.  Then on the second or third hole Faye asks her caddie, William,  "what should I hit?"  "Three wood, mam."  She then proceede to hit it into the deepest bunker she had ever seen.  Not happy.  William was not only a good caddie he was intuitive and people smart.  He quickly stated, "Oh that's  my fault Mrs. Williamsen.  I missclubbed you."  After which he proceeded to climb into the bunker and throw her ball out.  This event happened maybe ten times.  It was one of her most enjoyable rounds of golf of the trip.  And who said Muirfield is stuffy.

[Joel_Stewart]

Any of the caddies that have worked at Shadow Creek in Las Vegas have good stories, most of them involving Steve Wynn and his temper or celebs/politicians and women.

[A_Clay_Man]

Andy-

to a perfectly normal, expected question

Andy the difference between; How far to, and how far to carry, is monumental. Why should a golfer be given a number that is useless? Why should a golfer be given a number that is not the proper shots number? So, normal is obviously relative. In my world, I want to know the number to avoid it, or carry it, not the number to it.

Dave, I cant go Mucciesque with you. it's too much for this ADD bad typer. But, if you really did pay 150 a bag (which i doubt) you might have a point about the level of asskissing needed to satisfy such a fee.

I never took a class on how to be a caddie. I did do one watching round, with an old vet, who let me do all the work by the fourth hole. I didn't mind, and he gave me a glowing report, which meant I could go to work, pronto. Heck, My first loop was at Pebble, where I wasnt suppose to be, yet.  But Mike Lahotta knew talent when he saw it, and let me go out the very next day. I got a Doc, who paid two sheets to have me video tape him, all day, every shot. I sure hope he enjoyed my cinema veritae, when he got home.  

In my younger days I was known as Cecil B deWhale.

Dave, I disagree with you when you say " the caddy is subservient to the player", the caddie fee puts us on equal ground, to view it otherwise appears to be a prejudice on your part. We are not wait staff. I figure the pay is more for my knowledge. And Yes, I'm there for the golfer, maybe others are not? But I am also not there to blow sunshine up some guys ass. There are those types of guest that really need that. Plus, it makes it easy to remember what I say, when I tell it like it is. No sugar. No wasting my time with figuring a number to a bunker, that should not be placed anywhere the players thoughts.

And give up on your reading the putts rules thing, it aint gonna fly for resort golf. This aint no usga golf, its corporate golf, mostly. Plus most all caddies read their own guys putts. Serious golfers, need to be able to trust their own caddies. And that usually happens on the first hole. Under certain circumstances I can see a situation where the better green reader/knower caddy (it aint so much reading as you HAVE to know) will assist everyone, at the request of the disadvantaged caddy, or for time considerations.

As for changing out the bags, I will explain, but please just take it for what its worth? Your opinion is inconsequential to the facts that are;

Most Caddies work almost everyday, many go out twice a day. Some even three. The Ping change bags are ours, we buy them, we use them, and the reason we use them has absolutely nothing to with you, the guest. It has to the with how physically challenging it is to traverse those hallowed grounds. Our change bags are lighter than yours, GAURANTEED. The flip out legs are essential to have some sort of balance. We are NOT 15 years old, and I'd speculate that If I did carry your Louis Vaton w/ dive weights, I'd likely have to sit out, a day or more, recovering. Our change bags have big enough pockets to bring rain gear. The decision not to bring it, should've been the golfers, Not the caddies.




 

[Craig Sweet]

Well, if I used a caddy, and I don't, I'd use him for his knowledge. I can carry my own bag, read my own putts and figure my own yardage. But, yes, there are times when I want to know "where do I hit the damn ball?", and "do you have any idea where that one went?".

The caddy ain't my servant, nor would I want one.

To be quite honest, I don't even like to use the bag drop service. What's the big deal with carrying my clubs from the parking lot to the first tee? I'm not a cripple.

[Bob_Huntley]

Andy-

to a perfectly normal, expected question

 Our change bags are lighter than yours, GAURANTEED. The flip out legs are essential to have some sort of balance. We are NOT 15 years old, and I'd speculate that If I did carry your Louis Vaton w/ dive weights, I'd likely have to sit out, a day or more, recovering. Our change bags have big enough pockets to bring rain gear. The decision not to bring it, should've been the golfers, Not the caddies.

Adam,

When playing at clubs with caddies available I take a lightweight bag that is well balanced, has generous storage pockets and wait for it..... is clean. Some of the things I have seen at Cypress needed to go through an autoclave.

Before the round I remove any superfluous items and leave the headcovers in the trunk. I have one admonition to any caddie that suggests that I don't need my rain suit or umbrella and that is... at the first drop of rain you hie back to the locker room, retrieve my gear and return to me asap. In some forty years playing around the world, no one has taken that chance.

[Lou_Duran]

Joel,

I played golf with an asst. pro at another Vegas course who used to work at SC and often served as Wynn's golf companion and gopher.  Apparently, the man can't see and he is particularly demanding on himself and others.  There were many interesting stories, but this chap seemed to still have a warm personal regard for Wynn.

shivas,

One of the things that Barry did that I really didn't like was that he wanted to give me the club to hit and not the distance.  We had a couple of discussions about distance to certain spots and he reacted a bit like Adam and his Spanish Bay example.

Being that I am numbers oriented and a bit of card and pencil type, I like to know distances to hazards in the landing areas and to the middle of the green.  I prefer to get the pin position from a sheet, as I doubt that most caddies walk the course before the round, relying instead on their visual acuity (which may or may not be impaired by activities in the prior 12 to 24 hours).  I am not precise at all with my clubs, but knowing with some certainty allows me to make a freer swing.

Barry kept trying to give me more club than I needed, which though I normally resisted, I didn't on 14 and 15, resulting in shots long and slightly left of the target to where not even Tom Watson could have gotten up and down from.  Of course, I can take credit for all the other good shots I hit, but blame the caddie for the poor ones (including not giving me a driver on 16 like my partner on that hole hit; you hitting a knife into the rocks just before didn't help things).

With apologies to Adam and all other present and former caddies, give me a pull cart like they have at Bandon, a good yardage book, and a pin sheet, and I would be in hog heaven.  A year and a half later, I am still seething from hitting a great 128 yard 9-iron on my third shot to #1 at Sand Hills and watching my ball fly into a near umplayable lie in the bunker right behind the flag.  I paced it of, and I hit my ball between 125 - 128 yards.  Unfortunately, the flag was 8-10 yards shorter, and the caddy admitted that he was just guessing.  Not that I don't make math and perception errors, but at least I don't have to pay good money to do so.  

[Jason Mandel]

a good caddy story i like to tell involves one of my  dads best friend Perry,  who he used to play with all the time.

this guy was a really nice guy but he tended to be a little tough on his caddies.  if a caddy would say something like, "its about 130 yards", he would be known to say, don't tell me its about, tell me the goddamm exact yardage!  grant it, this guy was never better than a 12 or 13 handicap at best.

a good story with him was that years ago he had this young kid who had just started caddying, the kid was a little on edge already by the 6th hole, when the guy hit a shot that landed short of the green, as Perry began to yell, RUN, RUN the caddy dropped the bag and started runnign towards the green!  everybody who was in the group that day swears it was true and remains one of the funniest caddy stories i have heard.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Dave, you said per bag. I thought you meant per man. I'm not calling you a liar. Just doubting you paid a guy 3 sheets, plus tip, to carry double. If you did, I'm afraid that the crowd you hung with, or, the guy who set it up, was seen coming. Or gets out of the shower to pee. (definition of a schmuck)

[Andy Hughes]

Andy the difference between; How far to, and how far to carry, is monumental. Why should a golfer be given a number that is useless? Why should a golfer be given a number that is not the proper shots number? So, normal is obviously relative. In my world, I want to know the number to avoid it, or carry it, not the number to it.

Adam, I find this kinda fascinating. I have never had (or been) a caddy.  Back when I played my rounds over the Old Course, I probably could have used a caddy but couldn't afford one.
But I see a big potential issue with your view of what a caddy should be doing. For all I know, its the accepted and proper role I don't know. But--if the caddy has all the course information (such as yardage to different places, preferred angles etc), and he doesn't share any of it with his player, and the caddy just tells the player what to hit and where, then what exactly has the game been reduced to?  Is there any reason at all to have ANY strategic options?  Is this truly what most players would want from a good caddy, to be totally removed from decision-making, to have the the options and strategy of a great course utterly removed?

[Michael Whitaker]

My favorite caddie line...

A few years ago we were playing Royal County Down. My playing companion fired a tee shot across the bow of one of the dunes. He immediately looked at his caddie and asked, "Can we find that one?"

The caddie responded, "We'd have an easier time finding Elvis!"

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