[jim_lewis]

Tom Paul:

Thanks for telling us what Tommy thinks of Tom Fazio. I never would have guessed.

You know, I actually agree with many of his points, given your interpretation. What impresses me about Tommy is how he has become this discussion group's leading expert on Fazio and his works without having actually seen very much of his work.

Come to think of it...How many Fazio courses have you played?

There is a lot more variety in his courses than most in this group seem to think. Generalized statements about his work have a good chance of being wrong. If you play enough of his courses, I am pretty sure you will find some you like a lot, some that are o.k. and some that you don't care for. At least, that has been my experience.

[David Kelly]

With a few exceptions, of the Fazio courses that I have played I think that most of the variety in his work comes from the site itself. He has a varied resume because he has courses in all parts of the country but I find many of his holes repetitive no matter what the terrain.

I also have a lot of trouble recalling specific holes on many of his courses.  I enjoy both of his Primm courses and have played them many times but for the life of me I can only remember 3 or 4 of the 36 holes there.

[TEPaul]

Jim Lewis:

You know, I really don't know how many Fazio courses I've played. I certainly can think of two--Hartfeld National and Gallaway National are two. But there may have been others before I became interested in golf architecture.

From my post about what TommyN thinks of Fazio please don't construe that I'm anti-Fazio. I've played Hartfeld a number of times in qualifiers and such and I think it's a nice golf course. Some of the holes are pretty challenging and I do like the 11th, the 12th is a pretty good short par 4 with an interesting green and it's orientation. I thought the 14th was a good par 3 particularly the left side of the green. I like the "skyline" green on #16 and I like #17 very much. #17 is a hole that really does take a certain amount of thought. And I think that Gallaway is a very good course. There are some good holes, my favorite probably being the par 3 #17. I think that hole is well designed definitely. I probably will be playing Pine Hill real soon.

I have nothing at all against Tom Fazio's designs and I don't recall saying anything negative about his designs. I really don't even know that much about his US Open redesigns and how or why some people say he may have screwed up some old original design intents or whatever.

From what I have come to learn though about restoration designers and such I really can't understand why Fazio seems to be redoing almost every US Open site and sites that the USGA may be talking to.

And I can't understand why almost everywhere you look you seem to see the combination of the USGA, Tom Fazio and MacDonald & Co.

Certainly more than Fazio, I suppose I wonder about MacDonald & Co. They seem to be everywhere and on all these old classic courses redoing their bunkers. I don't think that MacDonald & Co. are necessarily bad bunker makers, it's just that I believe I've seen others that are far better than they are, particularly the ones who really can do good handwork--something I really don't see that MacDonald & Co. does much of.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim Lewis,
Eight Fazio courses counting Bel Air, but not counting the mess he is creating at
Riviera. (Which I have seen and I can truthfully say that I'm equally appalled.)

I have asked not make this so much about me and turn the focus to what is most important--MERION GOLF CLUB'S EAST COURSE.

While I may have chosen some less then complimentary verses to some of these members at Merion, whom I feel are responsible for this debacle, (Which more then likely insults your psyche or boundries of good taste) they have far exceeded it in their attempts at golf architecture and construction.

This is why I applaude Robert Walker's topic of opinion that specifically calls on me and seperates itself from this one. He is entitled to his opinion, and I can respect that no matter how much it may differ from my own.

Tom Paul has correctly identified, if not nailed it right-on ALL of my complaints about your beloved King Fazio. He has all of the power to do something of talent, chance, inspiration, etc. and yet choses to attack the greatest courses in the game for free with this ridiculous method of framing and accentuating man-made natural features because he wants to design more crap and charge exhorbident fees for doing it.

-If Tom Fazio wants to be so helpful to game of golf, lets see him do what Pete Dye does and design a golf course for $1.00 because he knows that it is the only way the course is going to get built for that paticular society or organization. (See Purdue and others that aren't coming to mind at this moment.)

-If Tom Fazio wants to hate classic courses because they way they were inferiorly constructed when compared to modern courses and the technology he has at his disposal today, that is fine.  Just tell him to leave the great old courses alone by saying "No thanks tot he members that approach him to work on them. He has no business even being there, and there is little doubt in my mind that he knows this.

Let him design 30-40 Forest Creek's a year, just ask him to leave alone the classic courses he hates so much. This way some great golf architecture in America still exists.

[Tony Ristola]

How's Merion doing these days?

[Joe Perches]

How's Pelican Hills doing these days?

[Jim Franklin]

How is Augusta? (although I do not know if those were his ideas or if he was instructed to put up trees and tighten LZs.)

Last I checked, Merion was pretty darn good. I have no idea what Faz did there, but it is one of my favorite places anywhere. Barney's place is pretty doggone good too.

[Adam Clayman]

We were recently privy to a real account of the playability of the evolved work from JSlonis who played there in a local big deal tourney.

Plus, Mike Cirba's account.

Search the recent back pages, they are not that old.

I will say it is nice to re-read some of Barney's original posts on this board. His status as celebrity is well deserved.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dr. Katz has left the building....RUNNING.  <IMG SRC="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/board/ubbhtml/smile.gif"><P>BarneyF,<P>Please, please, please tell us what you think of the bunkers from an architectural and aesthetic perspective.  <P>Yukon Cornelius spent his time in the fruitless pursuit of material wealth and even the Abominable one turned out to be quite the misunderstood chap, so perhaps you can work that strange dichotomy into your assessment, as well.<P>Stick around...you're the only person who I think was ever able to piss off the ever-optimistic Tom Paul (which takes A LOT!), so perhaps your presence will at least silence those mysterious, anonymous critics of this site who claim we simply spend our time happily agreeing and backslapping with ourselves.

Hmmm...

In re-reading this vintage thread it seems I was very on-target in some areas and out-of-my-mind in others.  

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